What does "Transparency" mean in Hospitality?

Dan Hawkie00:00:00

You are never going to get agreement on everything from everyone within the business.Everyone has their own agenda, everyone has their own thoughts.

Joe McDonnell00:00:06

Being a leader means that everybody questions every decision you make.

Molly Davis00:00:10

It's a really good reminder to us that not everybody learns in the same way and not everybody hears things in the same way as well.

Adena Cahill00:00:16

If you've been a tyrannical leader, they're not going to appreciate anything you have to say.But if you've been caring with your team, they do see that and they understand that it's either you care about them or you don't.

Joe McDonnell00:00:29

People lose their sense of humor when it comes to money very, very quickly.

Timothy R Andrews00:00:33

What's the things that people need to get over?

Adena Cahill00:00:35

Fear of conflict, fear of being wrong, fear of not being taken seriously, fear of not being in the right place.You have to look at yourself first and see if you are confident with what you are bringing forward to see if you believe what you're saying.

Timothy R Andrews00:00:49

Hello, everybody.Welcome to the show.Today we're talking about transparency in hospitality.This episode is produced in partnership with the tipjar, whose work around pay tips and trunk makes open communication particularly relevant.We are looking at how operators share their decisions with their workforce and how to move from principle to practice.By the end of this conversation, we will leave with practical action hospitality operators can take to become more transparent immediately.

Dan Hawkie00:01:19

I'm Dan Hawkie, Chief Commercial Officer at tipjar.

Adena Cahill00:01:22

I'm Adena Cahill.I'll newly be at Searchlight Ventures.

Molly Davis00:01:25

I'm Molly Davis from the BII British Institute of Innkeeping.

Joe McDonnell00:01:28

I am Joe McDonnell.I'm the Food and beverage commercial manager for Avon Valley country park and I'm an independent restaurant and bar consultant.

Timothy R Andrews00:01:50

How are we all feeling?Then?We'll begin.So let's start off with you, Dan.What is transparency?

Dan Hawkie00:01:58

Straight into the to the deep stuff, eh?I think transparency, for me, I think people often get confused about this.They think that just communicating something is transparent and I don't think that necessarily is the case.I think transparency should involve everyone as part of a process in terms of making sure that if you are releasing a policy of some sort, that it's transparent that everyone understands where they can find it, where they should see it.Transparency can be what we communicate to our customers when it comes to coming into our venues.Transparency is just integral to business and there's a lot of case studies to prove that, the impact that it has.But yeah, I think it's integral for any business to have a transparent culture.We aren't retrofitting this at Tip jar.We have it mentioned in our company values.It's in our handbook eight times the word transparent or transparency.So it's a big thing for us at tipjar.

Timothy R Andrews00:02:44

So you're nodding there, Dina, what are your thoughts?

Adena Cahill00:02:46

I think something that I'd add is that communication is something that's also sometimes not understood.Just sending out a memo is not communication.Posting something on the intranet or whatever is not communication.Making sure that people understand what they're reading, making sure that they understand what they need to do off the back of it, as well as having multiple lines of communication so that people who learn in different ways can understand what they're being given is important.

Timothy R Andrews00:03:09

Molly, you've got a brow that's concentrated there.What are your thoughts?

Molly Davis00:03:12

Yeah, I was agreeing.We do some work at the BII whenever we've got new team members in and it's a very simple kind of personality test, but puts people into kind of four areas.And it.90% Of the time, I would say it's really accurate and really spot on.And it just tells you how people work and how you can therefore adapt your kind of communication style to work with them.Obviously, they need to adapt their style to work with you as well.But what it shows us is that there are some people who are really process driven.So they're the ones who want a memo, they want it all in something they can put in a folder.And there are other people who are all about feelings and understanding.And it's a really good reminder to us that.That not everybody learns in the same way and not everybody hears things in the same way as well.

Timothy R Andrews00:03:52

It's very valid.And Joe, the other side of the.

Joe McDonnell00:03:54

Table, I mean, for me, it's a hard one because transparency, I think transparency is sort of downwind from integrity or downstream from integrity.If you've got 100% transparency, then if you haven't got the integrity that's come before that, you're going to find yourself in a bit of a pickle.Transparency can only kind of come if people are clear on what the expectations are and were.And then you followed through on that, then transparency works for you.If you've not followed through on what you've said you'd do, if you've not got that integrity that's internal, then that transparency will kind of.It'll catch you out.Right.

Timothy R Andrews00:04:26

I mean, that's a good point.And we're actually going to go into that, I think.I have a feeling we're going to hit that today.But one of the things is, when it comes to transparency, now that we know what it is, what are the areas, particularly in hospitality sense, that transparency is important perhaps to employees more than employers.

Adena Cahill00:04:41

I think the understanding of the why.So a lot of times things are passed down through the tree and through the chain of command and landed on people and they aren't sure why they're being given that task or why they're being given that directive.And that immediately removes that transparency.Even if they've had the memo of the here's what we're doing, they don't understand what the point is and how that affects them in their day to day, as well as how it affects the business.So I think we're looking more on the trust side of things there and making sure that we have to trust our employees with the reasons why.Because otherwise people don't react to what you're giving them.

Timothy R Andrews00:05:13

Absolutely.Joe, any thoughts?

Adena Cahill00:05:14

Sure.

Joe McDonnell00:05:15

No, I agree.Yeah, I totally agree.I think the why is important.The why is sort of if you.Again, if you communicate in it.Well, it's the reason that people are staying in the business.It's the reason that people buy into the business beyond the salary, beyond the progression.It's like, no, I believe in this thing.Yeah.Couldn't agree more.Yeah.

Timothy R Andrews00:05:32

No one else.

Dan Hawkie00:05:32

Yeah, I'd say the same thing.I think trust and transparency go hand in hand and I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario because often we will say trust us on something, but then maybe we're not as transparent around everything.How we got to that decision and why it is impacting on people, as like Adena had said.And I think the key part around transparency is that you can't tell everyone everything.That's not possible.But actually making sure the teams understand what's materially important to them and how it impacts on them, I think is really key thing behind that.

Molly Davis00:06:02

I think there's been a real shift change in people wanting that why.And I don't know if it is necessarily as simple as a new generation coming into the workforce, but it seems to be much more important to people to understand the kind of thinking behind your decisions and the reasoning maybe so that they could add something new and it gives that opportunity for other people, people to who think in different ways, to add something to the conversation and make you think about something that you hadn't maybe considered in.In your decision.And sometimes maybe you change your mind.

Joe McDonnell00:06:29

And there's a humility to that too.Right.If you're a leader and you can say, look, the reason I'm making this decision is because of this, this particular reason.Now you might not agree and you might not like the decision that we've come to and how this decision now affects you that effectively you're powerless to control.At least you can respect that.Reasonable.There's nothing more frustrating than someone's saying, this just doesn't make any sense.I'm not happy with the outcome and I don't understand it.That's where you get real ire from your teams, right?At least if you can explain it and say, look, I'm just a human.These are the cards I've been dealt.I've come to this decision because of X.They might not agree, but at least they can respect it.Right?

Timothy R Andrews00:07:06

If you're listening to this and you're going, I've got some.Either my business is struggling or we've got to make some tough decisions.How do you as a manager communicate that?It's all very well like saying you should communicate, but how do you do that?And Dan, you said like, you can't all always communicate everything.So where in any of your experiences, how do you know how to draw the line?Is it a personal thing?Is there a benchmark?How would you go about it?

Dan Hawkie00:07:30

I think it's important to go back to Molly's point.I think in such a neurodiverse world that we live in at the minute, there is different learning styles for people and how they take information in.And so I think you have to assess that as a business.You may find different cohorts of your teams that need information passed on in a particular way.But I think you also need to adapt to the times as well.If you have an app that your teams are using, using regularly, is that the right place to be communicating some of these things?But also you don't want to be just putting loads of messages out on any employee platform because too much noise means that nothing gets read.And that's what we said.You can over communicate on some of these things and people will ignore it.So I think you have to take into account personality traits within your teams, their learning styles and consider all aspects of that when trying to be transparent on anything within the business, really.

Adena Cahill00:08:16

And I think the culture that you've built around your trust and transparency will lead you to a better outcome.If you do have to bring bad news to the business.I think if you've been a tyrannical leader for the past three years, they're not going to appreciate anything you have to say, regardless if it's good or bad, but if you've been caring with your team, regardless if it's one to one, or if it's any kind of support that you've given to people you haven't even met, they do see that and they understand that it's either you care about them or you don't.

Joe McDonnell00:08:44

Yeah.And like calibration, just throw in another buzzword.Right.So, you know, are we talking about a really light ops change?Like, guys, this is the new procedure for this.Cool.That's a memo.But if it's okay, we've got some tough news to share.And do you have to share it with three people?Do you have to share it?You know, is it on a micro level?Do you have to tell an entire team, look, we're closing a branch, do you have to, you know, what is the vehicle for that?The best leaders know and we get it wrong sometimes, don't we?But sometimes you can say, look, I'm going to push this out.Other times it needs to be more sensitive and more sort of qualitative, shall we say?

Molly Davis00:09:14

Yeah, it's about timing as well, isn't it?So you've got to consider, yes, everybody in your team might need to know this, but if you tell everybody at one time and you don't recognize not the chain of command but people who might be more affected by it and just give them a heads up first, they're going to feel not as important that you haven't considered them.It's just tiny things like that where if you do put those things in place, people feel like they are part of something and you're caring about how they feel about the decision you've made.

Timothy R Andrews00:09:45

So in terms of areas being transparent, so not just the people we talked about that, are there particular areas in a business that are particularly sensitive to transparency and having an HR background?I also know that we often get the.If we're not transparent enough.Are there particular areas within a business or hospitality that particularly requires transparency or is it across the board?

Joe McDonnell00:10:09

Yeah, I mean, we've got tip jar on money.

Timothy R Andrews00:10:12

Yeah.

Joe McDonnell00:10:12

You know, people lose their sense of humor when it comes to money very, very quickly.It's such a sensitive thing.And I can, obviously I've been an operator since I left school in hospitality and I can remember that feeling of the manager before the new legislation came in and before these great systems existed, where the manager goes, look guys, the till's 40 quid down today.I'm taking out the tips, I'm like what?Like that could have been any.That, that.Not necessarily.That doesn't mean somebody's stolen.That could have been.Someone's rang something up to twice and the money's not there.Like why am I pet.You know that that's crazy.And that's very upsetting.Right.It's very, very far more than the fiverr of that 40 quid I would have seen, you know.And it sticks with you.

Timothy R Andrews00:10:49

I can see you're still angry.

Joe McDonnell00:10:50

I'm still angry about it 15 years ago.What my fiverr.

Dan Hawkie00:10:54

It's interesting.We still see policies that are sent through on a tip and basis that will talk about breakages.Like they'll be sent into tip jar before they come on board with us and they'll say, well actually breakages get taken out of your tips and that's part of their tip.And then trunk policy, which is crazy.Like in a world pre legislation that shouldn't have happened, but even more so in a post legislation world that shouldn't happen on that basis.

Joe McDonnell00:11:15

Illegal.

Dan Hawkie00:11:15

No, no, you can't do that because 100% of the tips have to be passed onto teams.But they believe that because they've been transparent and put it in a trunk policy and in an employee handbook, they think it's okay.So sometimes it's just a case of like Molly said, it's about making sure you communicate the right things to the right people, but also make sure you're making the right decisions in some of these areas as well.Yeah, I would agree.Money is a, is a big thing, but so we work in the tech world at tiptoe obviously and we have seen it in many different business and business that I've been part of where you can have things like leveling processes and, and they talk about everyone should be completely transparent about what everyone earns.That can be a really difficult conversation to have and you won't often see that in mainstream hospitality, the different pay grades, pay rates and that kind of thing.But it is a sensitive subject.I wouldn't say you necessarily have to be completely transparent on that, but when it comes to something like tipping that is something that is mandatory now.It's part of a law.You have to be transparent about what your tipping policy looks like, how you came to that decision, and I think it's a difficult one.But operators that have had process in place in the past where it's probably on the poor advice they've been given have used maybe GDPR as a reason that they can't be transparent with their Policy, we can't state where 100% of our tips go.But that would suggest if you can't be transparent on it, there's probably something unfair in there or something you may be trying to hide.And that would just ring alarm bells if I was an employee right now as well.

Joe McDonnell00:12:40

Yeah, because like Joe's point earlier, integrity, that was a good point you made.

Timothy R Andrews00:12:44

Sorry, here's Joe.What is the difference between tips and trunk?

Dan Hawkie00:12:48

Doesn't have to be a difference really.The key difference actually in today's tipping world is the difference between employer receive tips and employee receive tips.So employee receive tips is anything that effectively comes into a business's bank account or that touches their business.It could be cash that's put into a till, that's employee received.Employee received can be a direct cash tip that goes for a team member or it could be via a digital app.And so sometimes people maybe will kind of separate those two things out and say, well, one's tips, one's trunk.Tronc is effectively a scheme that's put in place to manage a process around how these tips get distributed to our team members and stuff.So yeah.

Molly Davis00:13:25

Have you ever seen anybody, a member of staff, collecting tips via their own digital device?

Dan Hawkie00:13:31

It is prominent in America, like if you've heard of Venmo, like Venmo is a big thing in America where they will collect their tips on their own devices or via their own QR codes.When Tip Jar was first established, it was QR codes was our thing.There would have definitely been examples of that with our solo product back then that team members would have been able to collect that tip via their own device and their own QR code or whatever it might be.Obviously the way the world has moved, they've moved to more trunk schemes and making sure that formalized processes in around it.But it's definitely something viable.It's a pretty contentious subject because in a restaurant or a bar, there's a lot of people that are involved in that service part.Right.And so therefore just the one to one tip is slightly different in the retail environment.So in a salon, if someone has looked after you from start to finish, wash your hair cut, blow dry, whatever it might be, if it's a one to one interaction, then you can understand why it might go to that one individual instead.But in hospitality, I think you don't see that as often as you would do in other sectors.

Timothy R Andrews00:14:28

Do you think that might change?

Dan Hawkie00:14:30

I think there's so much filtering through from the US when it comes to tipping.That, that, that may well change in the UK and it may even just cross pollinate across these different sectors.So taxi drivers is another example.You wouldn't expect that tip that you lead a taxi driver to go to a pool of taxi drivers.It's to the person that's looked after you.So there can be a cross pollination in terms of different rules and schemes.But yeah, I still think cash is key when it comes to that type of thing.Like if someone is giving you a five pound note and it's for you, then more often than not, that's probably for you as an individual, as they'll tip on a credit card if it's to go to the whole team instead.

Timothy R Andrews00:15:05

Because it's interesting because I don't think people always know the difference as a consumer.

Molly Davis00:15:10

Why would they?

Timothy R Andrews00:15:11

Why would they?If you've got experience of people that have tried to cheat the system and go on, can you give an example.

Dan Hawkie00:15:20

That there's too many examples out there at the minute in terms of tipping and trunk policies, but I don't want to just talk about that today.I'd say one of the best examples of transparency and the polar opposite assets is on a service side of things.I think when you look at who does things well, like Domino's, Deliveroo, Uber, whoever it might be, when they're transparent and they tell you how long your delivery is going to be, I think that builds trust with you as a customer.I ordered a Chinese from my local on Saturday evening and I was left to think, is this going to turn up in an hour?Is it going to be an hour and a half?And there's no transparency there for me whatsoever.And actually when put the phone down, I didn't ask them how long it was going to be, it ended up being an hour and a half.And actually that was something.I lost trust in my local Chinese as a result of that this weekend.Whereas if it was on the app and it was through delivery, I'd have known that it's going to be on time or if it's going to be delayed and that's absolutely fine.Same for train lines.If you know that your train is going to be late.Molly's frustrated with that one.But if we know we can understand, we can regulate ourselves to be able to deal with that.If you don't know, you lose trust in the whole process.And I would say that's where operators get it wrong.If they're not being transparent with the customer on all aspects of service delivery.

Timothy R Andrews00:16:30

If you were going to say to somebody, I want to be more transparent in my business.What would you say to them?

Molly Davis00:16:35

I think it starts with the leadership of the business and making sure that they are living those kind of values.That sounded really, really cheesy and corny.And for anybody who knows me, that's not how I speak.

Adena Cahill00:16:50

But a leadership book.

Molly Davis00:16:52

Yeah, it did sound like that.Yeah.Follow me.Subscribe for free worksheet.But genuinely, I do believe it.I think that if you, like we've said before, you can't tell everybody everything because actually, that worries a lot of people if they're not in a position to understand all of the inner workings of your business.But I think being vulnerable and being honest with your teams is really important because if you show them it's okay to talk about subjects honestly and openly, then they will feel the same.And I think you avoid a lot more issues, issues in the long run where people may have even left the business because you haven't been honest and open with them, or not even that you've lied to them, but you haven't made them feel part of the process and part of the team.And I do think that increasingly we need to rely on our team members more.We've got fewer people to work with us, and so you need to make them feel trusted and part of the journey.And I think that starts with being open and honest with people.

Joe McDonnell00:17:47

Yeah.One, definitely a tip I would give would be something I got taught very early on in my sort of, I guess, management learning arc or whatever you want to call it.

Molly Davis00:17:57

You're being just as bad as me now.

Joe McDonnell00:17:59

Yeah, yeah.But, you know, that was how he was described.If he's like, I think you're at the beginning of a very long journey here, that you've got a few things that you need to learn.And that, that kind of was great.But he taught me the.The framework tell, sell, ask, delegates.And it's one of the first sort of paradigms that I learned that I thought, actually this is very, very helpful because often we can get trapped in a.If we're panicked, not panicked, if we're busy, if we're stressed, if time is a factor, we can go into tell mode.Sometimes that's really useful.Sometimes when you just need things getting to be done, it's that wartime to throw another paradigm.It's wartime peacetime leadership.I find paradigms helpful.I think that you can get into a habit of too much tell or too much sell or too much ask.And I think maybe not the delegate 1.Per se in this context.But how much are you communicating in an ask way?How much are you communicating in a sell way?Because sells that really important one.

Timothy R Andrews00:18:50

Right?

Joe McDonnell00:18:50

I need to get you on board with this idea.This is us versus the problem Tell is you're doing this whether you like it or not.Maybe sort of check in with yourself.How many times has this interaction with this person been a tell, been a sell, been an ask?And different people respond better to different, you know, different approaches.Some people need to be asked more, some people need to be sold more, some people need to be told more.

Timothy R Andrews00:19:13

I'll still come back to this question because we keep saying that you can say too much and I'm still not sure.How do you know if you're saying too much?Like, if I'm a manager, how do I know I'm a leader?How do I know that I'm saying too much?

Dan Hawkie00:19:26

I think if the team aren't aligned with your, like, direction, I think it may be that they are hearing different messages and maybe they're not quite taking everything in.I think if.I think if the team are aligned, I think you will see that actually you're not telling them too much.I think you have to keep it quite short and sweet in some of these instances about what you're trying to get across to them.I would say that's a big part of it.Making sure that everyone's on the same hymn sheet, like singing off the same hymn sheet.I think that makes a massive difference.

Timothy R Andrews00:19:51

And in terms of barriers, because we're going to come, we're going to wrap up shortly and we're going to come to some of the suggestions that you can give to people.But if someone's listening, still struggling, what are the barriers that you're finding that people have before they're a bit more open with their communication?What's the things that people need to get over?

Adena Cahill00:20:08

Fear of conflict, fear of being wrong, fear of not being taken seriously, fear of not being in the right place.So it's a lot of to read from the leadership book, a lot of empathic leadership.But also you have to look at yourself first and see if you are confident with what you are bringing forward to see if you believe what you're saying, which is a big one, as well as.Do you think that you can handle if someone comes back at you with a response?Do you think you can field that?Do you think you can have that conversation with care and with trust in your team?Or will you just go, well, I've Said it now.Bye.

Timothy R Andrews00:20:44

We've all seen that.I have.

Molly Davis00:20:46

Anyway, quick teams message.

Joe McDonnell00:20:48

Yeah, absolutely.

Adena Cahill00:20:49

Or did it mean you just a quick ping.

Timothy R Andrews00:20:52

Well, I mean, I think we all remember Covid and the WhatsApp messages that went out to people.By the way, you're out the job.Hopefully you'll never see that again.Joe, do you have any thoughts on what might be stopping people?

Joe McDonnell00:21:03

Yeah, I think it's exactly that.I think it's people being afraid to be vulnerable.Especially as leaders, we have to put a front on and you have to back yourself.You do.And sometimes that's harder when you are showing.I might not have the right answer here, but the most courageous leaders and I think the most effective ones are the ones who aren't afraid to show vulnerability, aren't afraid to show their working out, as it were.Yeah, and again, I forgot who's mentioned it earlier, but talking about if you've not built that trust with your team over, I think it was you, wasn't it?If you're not built that trust over time with your teams, don't expect sympathy from them.Don't expect them to come over the aisle and think, God, you're struggling, aren't you?Let me help you with this.In this difficult time, if you've been a tyrant, you're not going to get that.But you do reap what you sow.If you are, if you do show empathy, if you do show courage and if you do show that you are trying your best for them, for you, for the business, you'll earn a lot of good grace from that.

Adena Cahill00:21:55

And that's on an individual kind of manager to workers kind of thought.But, but the larger part of that is I think a lot of what Covid actually did is it meant that we ended up with a whole lot of not quite confident managers because hospitality is rife with, you're good at this job, I'm going to promote you.I'm not going to tell you how to do that new job that I've just given you.Figure it out.So the learning and development in me is showing, but I really think we need to be ensuring that we're giving these managers what they need before they are actually in that position.Because a lot of times we're saying, here you go, figure it out.And it's, it's not suitable.I know people who work in government, in federal government who have learning plans for how they need to get to the next quadrant and that it's a beautiful, wonderful structure and I love a spreadsheet but we don't have that a lot of the times in hospitality and retail.

Timothy R Andrews00:22:47

It's a really good point, Molly.Dan, do you have any thoughts about how other thoughts, how people might be able to overcome either their fear or their stump?

Dan Hawkie00:22:54

I would agree with Adina in terms of.I think a big problem is that people worry about the decision that they've, they've come to and then communicating that with the team.You are never going to get agreement on everything from everyone within the business.I joke that if you ask 10 people about a tipping policy, you'll get 12 different answers about what it should look like.You are never going to get agreement with everyone.Everyone has their own agenda in some instances, everyone has their own thoughts.I think you just have to just stick by your guns and say, this is the decision that we've made and we're going to run with it.

Timothy R Andrews00:23:24

Yeah.

Dan Hawkie00:23:24

And I think you get trust from people that way.

Molly Davis00:23:26

Yeah, I think that's really important point that, you know, you can take lots of views on board and people love to be asked their opinions, but you also have to be strong enough to say thanks for all of that, understand why you said this.It's really given us food for thought.We have to make a decision though, because that's what we have to do on a daily basis.So we're going to move forward with this plan.But, you know, we want you as part of the process and if we have to pay pivot or change something as part of the plan, then maybe we can have a look at the ideas you raise.Something along those lines.The other thing I think to always remember is that I, I try to be like a really kind of kind and empathic leader and so I feel like that's what I'm doing.But if I say to my teams, have you got a minute?They literally all are like, oh, my God, I've been sacked.Even though, you know, the day before or the hour before, I've been praising them on what a great job they've done or how, you know, brilliant a piece of work was.Because that's the way that they are wired in terms of their communication style.I mean, it's not all of my team.One of my team would be like,.

Adena Cahill00:24:26

Yeah, sure,.

Molly Davis00:24:29

Exactly, exactly.

Timothy R Andrews00:24:30

And I'm like, by the way, you are fired.

Molly Davis00:24:32

We really need to have a serious chat.But I think it's remembering that everybody is different again and that they, no matter how much kind of work you put in and how vulnerable you are as a leader, they will always have their own personality styles and receive things that you say.So now I say, have you got a minute?Promise I'm not going to fire you, which is probably HR problematic.

Timothy R Andrews00:24:53

But if you said, have you got a minute?And don't say the second bit.I was just saying.I'm just putting it out there.

Molly Davis00:24:58

Exactly.I have so many things to remember, Tim.

Adena Cahill00:25:02

Every time my.My mum or my dad gives me a text and says, do you have time for a quick, quick phone call?I'm like, right, who's dead?

Molly Davis00:25:07

Yeah, my kids are like that.If we call them into the lounge, because that's the room of death.

Adena Cahill00:25:12

Oh, oh,.

Timothy R Andrews00:25:15

Don't go to your.To a cup of tea, come to.

Adena Cahill00:25:19

The lounge for some dessert.No, I'm good, thank you.

Timothy R Andrews00:25:21

Remembered.

Molly Davis00:25:22

I'm busy.

Timothy R Andrews00:25:24

Did you want to say something?

Joe McDonnell00:25:24

Yeah.The other thing I think is really powerful is that we haven't mentioned yet is get yourself a mentor.

Adena Cahill00:25:30

Yes.

Joe McDonnell00:25:30

You know, it's lonely.Lonely being a leader is lonely being a manager.Having a mentor who's got you back, who's definitely external.You know, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with internal mentors too, but having someone who's not part of your organization, who can see the wood for the trees, who's 10, 15, 20 years further on in their career, just that empathy, like, yeah, I've been there.Yeah, it sucks.Do it anyway.That support can be great.And then I think also something I tried to do a lot is try to be a mentor to like, pay that back.Because a lot of the time they can come to you with their problems and you go, God, I remember struggling with that and now I've grown and that's not my stress anymore.And it's just fills you with confidence too.Like this, what I'm struggling with day won't be my problem in five years.It's a beautiful thing.But, yeah, get.If you find a mental.

Molly Davis00:26:15

And also.And also you're like, oh, thank God.I don't have to worry about that.

Timothy R Andrews00:26:24

Actually, Molly, you can't please everybody all the time.And everybody's different.And it's one thing that stayed with me just the beginning of lockdown.I was in a government think tank about what people are going to do in terms of how they're going to react to government lockdowns.And they were really clear.10% Will not do anything that we tell them to do.10% Flat across the board.Whatever we say, they'll do the opposite.20% Will follow us to the letter.They'll follow everything.The remaining 70% will do what they think the majority is doing.And they said as soon as somebody goes to the beach, loads of people are going to go to the beach.And it's exactly what happens.So it's something to think about when we're as leaders trying to please everybody.You just can't.And they were so on the nail with it.And it's a statistic you see in other business things as well.So it's just something I wanted to share because it's important to have that awareness.

Adena Cahill00:27:25

It's important to know who your key players are in your group as well, that you have to get on your side because then everyone will follow them.

Timothy R Andrews00:27:31

Yeah, absolutely.Get your to the beach.

Dan Hawkie00:27:33

Yeah, but yeah, no, I think definitely looking at who your biggest influences are in your business, the biggest champions, getting them on side can make a massive difference in terms of implementing something.Well, and that comes again from trust.If the team are trusting those people, that's going to make the message so much easier to go through the rest of the team.

Adena Cahill00:27:50

I would say alternatively finding the people who are the biggest thorn in your side and flipping them to your side or working with them to try and figure out why they have that negative headspace or.

Timothy R Andrews00:28:00

That's a good point.

Molly Davis00:28:00

Flipping them or flipping them or flipping them.

Timothy R Andrews00:28:03

I also got to the point where a lot of the time if I can't, I learn, invest a certain amount of energy and then I'll put it in the energy into the people that actually are responding to that.Otherwise it can be quite a never.

Molly Davis00:28:14

Ending hall of radiators and drains.

Timothy R Andrews00:28:16

Yes, exactly.Okay, so obviously we've already touched on there's a lot of different learnings from people.And if you just put our bulletin, for example in English, how do we know that's received?Has anyone got any thoughts on that?

Adena Cahill00:28:33

It's probably not.So regardless of whether you're.You think that you're posting it everywhere it needs to be.Some people learn verbally, some people learn through video, some people learn through the written word.As you know, a lot of our hospitality industry is not always English speaking.In some businesses that I've been in, it's definitely not been majority English speaking.So how are you ensuring that those people are also being included?

Dan Hawkie00:28:56

I'd say the easiest way to manage that is easy to me to say this is a technology company, but be digital first.I think in terms of we think about the demographic of the majority of our workforce, they're all gonna have tech neck like they are constantly on their phones, on their devices.And I think if we think about the best ways, the easiest ways for us to communicate, I think digital first should probably be something that we should be considering.It's easier, as Adina mentioned there, like to ensure that like something can be translated in a different language if it is on a, on an app of some sort or on an Internet page, whatever it might be, as opposed to it being in an employee handbook which is printed or on a blackboard in the back office.I think if it's digital, you've got many ways to do that and different forms of content as well.So whether it is audio, video, text, imagery, whatever it might be, I think yeah, that'd be a key thing for me.Making it digital first as a kind of stepping stone to where you want to get to really.

Molly Davis00:29:50

And easy to send out another reminder as well that way.Whereas if you've just pinned it to a notice board that becomes part of the Detroitus all over there, then nobody's going to pay attention to new things or old things.

Adena Cahill00:30:01

The only other thing I'd add is that regardless of how you're sending it out, if you're sending it out digitally, it can feel relatively impersonal.So ensuring that in there somewhere you've got.If you have any questions, here are the people that you can speak to to get clarity.Because we are a people first industry,.

Dan Hawkie00:30:17

I'd say we, we still probably don't use in our sector our briefings and debriefings on a site level as good as they should be.Like you think about it once, once, once we're settled into a role and we just want to crack on with the.Our briefings and debriefings can be pretty robotic and we just get the job done.It's a tick box exercise and I think we need to look at those as our best way of communicating with our teams on a day to day basis.Ensuring that we are completely transparent with everything we're trying to achieve on that shift today.If we're trying to hit a sales figure, a covers figure, whatever it might be, if there's stock that we need to try and get rid of, whatever it might be, like 100% we should be using briefings and debriefings better.

Joe McDonnell00:30:58

Digital first but not digital last.I think there's an application for digital and obviously it's efficient.Obviously from a tick box exercise we can say, yeah, cool, this person has declared, you know, they've declared that they've read it.But a lot of these Softwares.I know, I use one that you can see how long they've read the memo for.It's about 600 words and it's taken in three seconds.They did not take that in.They flicked to the bottom and ticked it.And I can then turn around and say, well, you said you read it and therefore you're in trouble.But that's actually not the purpose, is it?We want to convey the information.You are always going to need someone who is the line manager, who is the direct report, whatever, who is checking for understanding and not just, did you read it?Can you relay it back to me?But what did, what did you take from that?Why do you know?And again, come back to that.Why, why do you think we're sending that out?All that sort of stuff.So, yes, digital first, but yeah, again, speak to your point.It's people first, right.We're going to need that touch point always.

Timothy R Andrews00:31:56

Anyway, on that note, we're just going to lift it up.So from each of you, if you were going to give somebody advice on how to be more transparent at work or have more open communication, again in a hospitality environment, what advice would you give them?I'm going to start with you, Dana.

Adena Cahill00:32:11

Read Patrick Lencioni's Five Dysfunctions of a Team, because it'll give you a lot of insight into what you're doing that you don't realize you're doing.I wasn't believing in myself enough and that I wasn't giving myself enough confidence to manage my own team.And that meant that I didn't trust them because I didn't trust myself.

Joe McDonnell00:32:28

I just thought of a Game of Thrones quote.Oh, it's.No, he says he's on the wall, he's talking to Jon Snow and he's like, being a leader means that everybody questions every decision you make, but the minute you start questioning yourself, you're bleeped.And I think it's, you know, I think there's, there's, there's wisdom to that.I think you have to obviously be self aware.Obviously you have to regulate yourself.But I think you do.I think you should back yourself.I think you're in a position because other people believe you can do that job.So you just, you do need to back yourself.And don't, don't doubt yourself, Molly.

Molly Davis00:33:04

That's what I do.I drink wine and I know things.

Adena Cahill00:33:08

Right?That's it.We can go.

Molly Davis00:33:12

I literally was like, that's what you're gonna say, right?I think difficult as it is in any environment, Particularly in hospitality though, make the time to talk to your teams and especially if there are people in your teams who need, but maybe don't want that one on one time because they're like, no, I don't want to talk to you, I just want to bury my head in the sand.But often a five minute chat will, will make them feel better about the situation and also make them feel like you have made that time for them.So yeah, that would be my tip.

Timothy R Andrews00:33:43

Last but no means least, Dan.

Dan Hawkie00:33:46

I would say we've talked a lot about it being around transparency, about how we communicate with our teams and I think that is what we concentrate as businesses around.I would say it's just as important to be transparent with your customers as well, whoever they may be.And I would say like hospitality is not rocket science.We're a people.This is a people game for us.And I think if you communicate well with your teams and you communicate well with your customers, I think you are going to have a very solid business.So I would say like, start with your teams because they're going to be the ones that put this message out to your customers but make sure that they understand how important transparency and communication is and that will filter through to your customers as a result of it.And I think you'll, you'll win as a result of that.

Timothy R Andrews00:34:28

Thank you everybody for coming on the show.I hope it's been a good one.I hope you listeners and viewers have enjoyed it too.There's a lot to unpick.If you have concerns about transparency or communication within your business, particularly around paid tips and trunk, we will have links to our partner tip jar underneath in the description below.And of course we would have some complimentary blogs as well.Thank you all very much.If you do have questions actually and you're listening to this and you do want to drop us a line or get in touch with any of the guests here, please email us@heyalkinghospitality.com Talking Hospitality.

Molly Davis00:35:07

Talking hospitality.

Adena Cahill00:35:09

Moving the hospitality conversation forward.

Molly Davis00:35:14

Talking hospitality.