Why Hospitality Needs to Rethink Recruitment

Akashia Carswell:00:00:00

Recruitment is part of hospitality. We've got the biggest hospitality recruitment in most countries. You could just be sweeping the floor in a hairdresser's for six years and come out of it and still have no qualifications. And it's massively unfair. It's really weighted into the favour of the employer to keep wages low. The government legislation is that from the age of 16, if you leave school, you're going into an apprenticeship and we're very, very much in support of that. It's difficult to know what you want at that age, but if you choose to leave school, then the options should be clear and plenty.

Timothy R Andrews:00:00:41

Welcome to Talking Hospitality. Today you will be joined by hosts Timothy R Andrews, me and Joe McDonnell. We'll be talking to CEO of London Talent and Hive Cru Akashia Carswell, where we'll be discussing recruitment within hospitality, what it looks like now, where it needs to improve because it is changing and what the future might look like. So please join us now for a very, very interesting topic on what's the future of Hospitality recruitment?

Joe McDonnell:00:01:10

Akashia, welcome to the podcast and joining us as ever, is the effervescent Tim Andrews.

Timothy R Andrews:00:01:18

Timothy R Andrews.

Joe McDonnell:00:01:19

Timothy R. Andrews. So, Akashia tell us about London Talent. Why did you start it and why did you love it?

Akashia Carswell:00:01:36

I started it because I found that we were going to recruitment companies and I knew loads of people that we were going to. And I just finished operations manager role at the O2 and it was so hectic. We were setting up three restaurants there at the time, so I just thought, why not? Let's do this, Let me, let me bring in all my contacts and I had very grand ideas starting off that it was going to be leading into, you know, several different sections. We'd have designers, we'd have the architects, blah, blah. And what it boiled down to was recruitment. And I refused to say that word for a really long time. I would call myself a headhunter, but it freaked people out. You know, I had a sight, you know, it wasn't good, wasn't a good look. So we do call it recruitment, but I think, like, you know, when we do, when you go to our website, it's we say headhunting hospitality. And we started out very much on a. I knew everybody, so I would give you recommendations, like professional introductions. And I think we kept the essence of that all the way through and we're diversifying a little bit now whilst London Talent does permanent positions. Something that Tim knows is that I've always been quite interested and leaned into temp recruitment, but we're doing it A little bit differently in that we found that a really massive gap is you still need qualified people for temp work. And with the government changes that are coming in, we're really looking at how we can get people like me, single parents that might have a very small gap. It's really tough to fit our workday into it, back into the job market more effectively and skillfully with qualifications. So, yeah, I mean, we're branching out to that. And that's our new little baby called Hive. It's the hive.

Joe McDonnell:00:03:28

For those that don't know what are the. What are you mentioned the government changes that are coming in that you're adapting to for those that don't know what. What does that mean for employers?

Akashia Carswell:00:03:38

Don't quote me on it verbatim, but along the lines of when you're 16 years old and you leave school, you are not going to go into a Saturday job for six quid an hour anymore. There are apprenticeships that are coming in and employers should adhere to the fact that people, that demographic now needs qualifications and skills because, I mean, you could just be sweeping the floor in a hairdresser's for six years and come out of it and still have no qualifications. And it's massively unfair. It's really weighted into the favour of the employer to keep wages low, which I know, you know, for the mom and pop shops and the things that aren't chained, it's difficult to match a London living wage and it's really difficult to match pay per hour from bigger companies that have it all, you know, the benefits, all the bells and whistles. So this is a way, the way that we're looking at it is there's a way to get people qualified without it costing the employer too much. But also let's get some skills into people that are young and also let's re educate people a little bit that may be having to have a change of career. So the government legislation is that from the age of 16, if you leave school, you're going into an apprenticeship and we're very, very much in support of that and we're very much leaning into the early stages of people's, young people's careers and getting them into really great positions. It's difficult to know what you want at that age. But if you choose to leave school, then the options should be clear and plenty and should offer enthusiastic and fair employment.

Joe McDonnell:00:05:22

Hospitality is just. I mean, I obviously love the industry, but I think it's especially useful for young people in terms of the soft skills that you get that just aren't part of a school, you know, a national curriculum. You know, how to deal with someone who, how to. I think the big one I think is how to agree without. When you don't agree. When you don't agree. You know, we kind of, we come there from a schooling kind of comes from a top down psychology. Right. You have to listen to the teacher because they're the teacher, because I said so. Whereas in hospitality you might dis, you know, someone might send some food back and you might disagree that there's anything wrong with it, but learning how to put your personal preferences aside or your thoughts and feelings aside and actually. Yeah. And actually put a good face on something. It's incredibly good life skill.

Akashia Carswell:00:06:17

When you talk about hospitality and I don't know if you have a hospitality background, but what's the thing that springs out to you when somebody says hospitality? When you know, we go to work in hospitality, what do you first think of? What's the job? What's, what's the role that you think of?

Joe McDonnell:00:06:34

Two things I think of. One is like, so, yes, I am in hospital, so I've been in hospitality since I left school and I've always been in this industry. And the two things that come to mind are hard work and creating experiences for people.

Akashia Carswell:00:06:51

But what's the role that you think of? Do you think about a job in particular?

Joe McDonnell:00:06:55

No, I don't think of a role in particular with hospitality. I think of being in front of a guest and creating something for them, whether that be a physical product like creating a drink for them on the spot, or it'd be creating an atmosphere by welcoming them into a space that I'm holding essentially, or whether it's setting a tone at a dining table or whether it's. And also from an employment point of view for, you know, managing teams and creating a, creating an environment for people to work in. So but when I think of hospitality, I think of, as I say, working hard and I think of being in front of a person and creating something for that person.

Timothy R Andrews:00:07:41

Okay, well for me, for me it's. Even though I, my background is bar originally my first guy to his waiter. If someone says hospitality, that's the, that's the image that comes to my head and then the rest follows.

Akashia Carswell:00:07:56

So interesting because everybody has an entry level in like you did Jo. Right. You didn't go into hospitality saying I want to create an experience. You learned that along the way. And it's something that endeared you to working in hospitality. And hostility has a very Very bad, rapid, you know, because the way that people think about it is bartender, waiter, and it's not a career that people think of, but they love it and then they can see progression afterwards. But actually hospitality is law. It's finance, it's electrician and plumbing and architecture and design. It's going from bars and learning about spirits, countries, wines, regions. It's, it's incredible. And it's also scary when you are standing behind a bar and there's a piece of wood behind you and you're in the middle of field and 5,000 people are on the other side. We're going to know who lied on their cv because those are the ones that are crying. But there's a real mentality of teamwork in hospitality.

Timothy R Andrews:00:09:06

Returning to hive, because I'm quite interested in hive in terms of the educating and getting people qualified, even though they might be doing casual temp work. In terms of, in normal spheres, where I'm going to say normal, I mean, people that, where they might have permanent staff coming on that we, we find there's often in principle, people are fully agreed with the idea of progression for, for people. So they go, yeah, we're going to put them on an apprentice. Yeah, we're going to train them up in a leadership program. Yeah. And then when the reality kicks, a lot of people, we're far too busy, we can't do this, we can't do that. How are you dressing that situation? Because obviously it's a common thing.

Akashia Carswell:00:09:51

Yeah. So whenever you go into, let's just say a hotel, your brand bible doesn't change where you're situated, doesn't change.

The fire exits remain in the same place. When something boils, it boils at the same temperature. And when something freezes, it freezes the, the same temperature.

So there are absolutely standard things that you learn when you go into any environment, whether it's an office, you know where the fire exits are. So first of all, the brand will have all of that information and we upload it.

So prior to coming on, we will have all of that information already for the brands that you go into your apprenticeship in. So we then take what their learning and development within that brand is and they learn as they go along and it's entire, it has to be up to them.It's 15 minute courses, we're hoping.And, and as you go along in week one to week four, to week six or wherever, you have to go through a short amount of testing and say, yes, I've learned that. And you do it, you do A little test.

And all of that information is either provided by the brand or we're not reinventing the wheel.They are standard safety operating procedures or sequence of service for that brand or whatever. And so we can actually monitor that candidate for you.And that is if you want somebody to go into a permanent position, which we're not really focusing on. What we're really focusing on is, let's say, for example, the Royal Albert hall needs 400 people. Now, Tim, you've been in temp recruitment.

How would I recruit 400 people for the Royal Albert Hall? Where does that start, that process? How long does it take? How many temp agencies do you call? How many CVs do you go through?How many phone calls are made? Go to two or three different agencies and they've got two or three desks or a desk or working on it. How many emails, phone calls and whatever.How, how, how long does that take for 400 people off the top of your head to book?

Timothy R Andrews:00:12:04

If we had that, we would be a minimum of three months. We'd probably start working it four months in, I would think possibly six. Depends on the, the level of the event. But we would pro with where we've done it before. I think six months is you put the feelers out, but four months in is when you do a proper drive. You start driving it because you, you start recruiting and then there's dropouts and it's dropouts that you. You have to account for and then you basically have to have. If you're looking for 400, you're looking about really realistically hiring about 500, 550. Because there's all the people that can drop out.

Akashia Carswell:00:12:42

Yeah. And how many people does it take? Let's include all the agencies that you go to and those. And those people that are making the phone calls and then it comes back to you. So how many people does it take?

Timothy R Andrews:00:12:53

Well, if I was. I'm going from when I had an agency, so I would connect up with probably two other agencies at the time and I'd have obviously an, an account manager for each one, which I guess would be. So that's two, plus my own team. I probably have two people on it. So it's four. And then you've got people overseeing it. So possibly five, six. Plus all the agencies, including the agency.

Joe McDonnell:00:13:18

So.

Timothy R Andrews:00:13:18

Yeah, because we outsource. Yeah, so it's about six people.

Akashia Carswell:00:13:23

So the idea of Hive is that you can go in and you put in your. I know, I need bartenders that can make cocktails and change A beer barrel. And what it does is it filters people out for those skills, but also the dates that they're available so you won't ever get anyone. And they're pre qualified and pre checked and uploaded. So your 6 month search could potentially be booked within 4 hours live in advance. I'm gonna go now.

Timothy R Andrews:00:14:01

And on that note, thank you very much and you can contact Akashia on the following details....

Akashia Carswell:00:14:06

I'll be editing that for advertising. That's really the crunch point. So we've had 20 years of pain, 20 years of pain. And it's taken me a really long time to go through it. And you know, Tim, you and I talked about the temp agency stuff so many times. We were like, oh, it's just, it's just the little, little tiny things. And so with the advancement of, you know, people going to apps and tech and all the rest of it. And I know that we've got a couple of conversations about HIVE at other times that are coming up. And so our aim is to take away your pain points. It's not to save you money, you know, Although if I wanted to use an example, I think Walmart makes 1% of profit a year, but they've got 5 billion zillion stores, so they're 1% amazing. And this probably won't save you more than 1%, but they'll save you four months. And I think what we're doing is we're saying let's save your time, effort, you know, your invoicing, your admin, your payroll, your head counting. You're seeing if people turn on, if they don't, your, you know, everything that you would usually do, we'll just put it into your hands. And actually you, Tim Andrews, Timothy R. Andrews, can actually pick your own staff that suits your brand. It should really just smash the, hopefully the recruitment, the temp recruitment process in a really positive way because as you go along, the learning and development is actually the thing that sets us apart. It's not even the timelines, even though they're incredible and it's going to be amazing, it's tech heavy. What's really, really important is getting young people and learning and developing them so that employers can just tick those boxes. But also often you don't have time to do those things. So let's help you with that.

Timothy R Andrews:00:16:16

Thank you. So we've got three people here quite passionate about recruitment itself. I've got opinions on it, so. So Joe, I'm interested from both of you, like in terms of. I'm gonna start with Joe in terms of recruitment, what do you. Things have changed dramatically since 2016, where we had Brexit and then we've had, obviously Covid, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What do you think has changed for the better, and what do you think we can still improve on over to you two?

Joe McDonnell:00:16:55

Well, I don't think much has changed for the better, if I'm honest. I. I think. I think we're. I think we're. Yeah, I think the wheels move pretty slowly in terms of change in hospitality. And unfortunately, it's a little bit like government legislation. It's like the world is changing at a rate that's outstripping the rate at which most people can adapt themselves. And I think certainly from what I see is that a lot of people, of operators, a lot of venues, even the bigger ones, have still got this mentality of, well, they should want to work for me. They'd be lucky to come and work for someone as good as me. I've got the best team. I expect nothing but the best. Best I expect you to be. You know, I want you to go 11 out of 10. I want you to, you know, treat this like it's your own business and live and die and breathe it. And it's like, yeah, you pay. Let's see what, let's see what you're offering in return for that. And it's like you're offering minimum wage, you're offering not. You're not offering advancement opportunities, you're not offering, you know, directly showing people how they can progress. And. And, you know, and then there's this. Then there's a slightest slip up and it's like all the blame comes back on the individual. There's no account. You know, there's very little accountability from people who were supposed to be the leaders in the organization. And I think that is. That was fine when I started to say, when. Going back to. When I started in hospitality, I wanted a bar job and I had to collect glasses for four months before I'd let. I'd get a shift on the bar. Only four months exactly. And I picked up as a KP as well in the kitchen, just cleaning pots. Not me too, because I wanted to be in the kitchen. Never have wanted to be a chef and I've never have been. But just to show them that I had a work ethic, that I was prepared to put the time in and that I wanted it. And that's just. That's just not the world we're in anymore. Now it's the opposite way around. It's like, it's the. The onus is on the employer to say, here's why I'm a good place to work and to actually think, okay, let's make this a partnership, not a one way street, because it just isn't. And I think the people are fighting a losing battle these days because. And the biggest reason is they haven't had that mindset shift of I actually need to bring something to the table, just like my employees need to bring something to the table. I don't think we've got up. I think there's some places that are doing it really, really well, but I think most places are back in the stone age with it. Personally.

Akashia Carswell:00:19:27

Joe, I want to give you a hug. I think we've been traumatized by the same mistress here. Honestly. Honestly, I. When I started, I was the worst waitress in the world. I actually took a pot of tea out. Didn't take the cup out, didn't take a spoon. I didn't take the milk out. And it actually took me that many journeys for me. Really nice American guy, he's like, can I have a teacup? And I was like, oh, yeah. Sauce and a teaspoon. Yeah. Oh, if I tried it a couple of times, can I get some milk? I was like, yeah. I was like, is there anything else you'd need? He was like, sugar.

Because I had no training and fantastic restaurant and then I wanted to be on the bar. And at that time, women, women on the bar.So I then volunteered to go in the kitchen. And I stayed there for three months. And then I said, if you want me to stay in the kitchen. And I did the waitress thing.I said, then you need to give me a stint on the bar. And these B words bartenders said to me, said to me, yeah, if you can tell me what's in every single cocktail by tomorrow. Well, I did.I went home and I memorized every single cocktail. And given it was like late 90s, late 90s.It was things like Long island iced tea, Mai Tai, but also kamikazes and, you know, grasshoppers and things like that. And I memorized absolutely every single one of them. Went in, smashed it.The next day, there I was, stood behind the bar, had no idea what green, yellow, Curacao looked like. Blue Curacao looked like any of it. And I just stood there like a lemon. I had no idea where anything was. I had no idea what the speed troubles, but.But I did it. And they trained me as bartender, but I had to really, really go through the hoops And I agree with you.I tell you what hasn't changed, and that is you will always have people in hospitality that have an ego and a problem with people advancing. And these times are gone.

We've got a bit more leverage being junior staff now to a little bit more leverage. But what you.You cannot leverage and what people don't understand is when somebody's setting your schedule, giving you sh. Giving you a report, getting you through probation, well, quite frankly, they can be. And I've. I've seen so many.So many egotistical managers in the industry, and that has not changed. This whole we're all in it together is rubbish. It's rampant. I think it's as rampant now as it ever was.And maybe they've got a different word for sexism. And, you know, we've all been through that. Whether it's, you know, sexism or racially profiling people or, you know, it's. It's. It's interesting.Not that much has changed 25 years. Not much has changed, the structure and the attitude. But there is hope. There is hope there.I think the generation that are coming up are much more aware of gender issues and that type of thing.And I think that people that are my age that have gone through it and are sort of like managers, operations, directors and whatever, I think they're finding it more difficult. I really do. I really do. But, you know, they're gonna have to.They're gonna have to step up because they will be absolutely fossilized in a second if they don't.

Timothy R Andrews:00:23:09

I think the hardest thing, what I find, and it is related to L and D, but it is the recruitment element is the people is excuse. I still hear it. I don't have time. I don't have time. I don't have time. So they're prepared not to train somebody because they don't have time who then leaves, which then leaves, makes everybody else busy again. And then when they finally do replace somebody, they've had to recruit, interview.

Joe McDonnell:00:23:39

How.

Timothy R Andrews:00:23:39

Many times in a. Probably in twice or three times as much time as it would have taken them to train that person, to train.

Akashia Carswell:00:23:47

That person to give them some time, to have a set of.

Timothy R Andrews:00:23:49

Just to give some basics. And for me, I find that just a massive source of frustration for me in that we have not learned to invest properly. We've come from a time where we've hired lots of people that have no experience and then promoted them into roles that they're not ready for. And then we complain that they can't deliver to the standards that we can, because we haven't spent the time, which sometimes is half an hour, but that.

Akashia Carswell:00:24:18

All that tells you is that they don't know the actual cost of business. So let's look at that recruitment fee. Let's look at the amount of sales you've missed because you haven't been able to serve a drink or costs being pushed or waste being pushed up because the drinks being made wrong. Well, the length of time it takes for something to get from, from back, back of house to customer where, you know, now we're having to push tables. Someone's had a bad experience. So everything suffers. The brand suffers, the service suffers, the customer suffers.

And those people feel inadequate because as Joe pointed out earlier, who gets the blame? The person that is doesn't have a voice yet and the person that's, you know, hasn't been trained and it's, it's, it's abominable.And I think that the value of that comes from the top. You know, the value of that is taught from the top and the action of that is done from the middle.And the, the cost of business operating like that is millions, billions. Because you lose so much. You lose. Everybody loses, everybody loses.

Joe McDonnell:00:25:28

So I think that's why it's so good to have people who can come in and, and deliver L and D, because it as well, it's kind of. I do have a small amount. I like, I, I've not had it, I've not had like an employment job for like in over five years now, like. But.

And I kind of, I like helping owners with this problem because it's like if they, it's a bit, a bit of extreme example, but it's like the kid who was disciplined from being hit at home. When they become a parent, it's on them to break the cycle.

And if you're in a position now where you're an employer, the chances are you came up through a just get on with it kind of. Why, you know, the expectations are up here and the support's down here. It's there, it's, it's.And I do have sympathy for them because actually how do you get off the treadmill just to, you know, we talk about, well, maybe it's half an hour here and half an hour here, like for someone like Tim to come in and say, well. Or someone like you, Acacia, to come in and say, well, here's how you do this. It's a quick half an hour job. If they've never been shown how to.

Akashia Carswell:00:26:31

Be a trainer, that Was my point. Yeah.

Joe McDonnell:00:26:34

It's not a half an hour job for them, is it? Because it's not half.

Akashia Carswell:00:26:36

Because they haven't been trained to train. Yeah, yeah, No, I agree with you completely. It comes from the top, though. It comes from the top.If your owner is an owner of one place, they care about sales, okay? They don't care how those sales are made. Unless you can point out that by investing in something, you can raise your sales by a percent.

That sits on the bottom line. And I think that's a language that, you know, business owners understand. It's not to do with the welfare or the progress of a candidate.That's not what they're buying. But the, as you said, the, the people that are then in a place to, to train other people have not been trained to do so.So they have no frame of reference, they have no support, they have no nowhere to go. You know, they're just, they're going through a list of actions that they do. And it's. I hate to say it, but it's sort of a bit monkey see, monkey do.They don't question why they're doing those things or if there's. They just do it because that's the way it's done. And to break that mentality, you have to be the odd person out, which we love.I love an odd person out. I love it. I like somebody that rocks boat a little bit and says, but why are we doing it that way?And other people don't like it because it is, this works, but it's not working efficiently and it's not working the best you can do it.And I'm really hoping that Hive will enable employers, whether you hire temp staff or event staff, to us, employers can lean in and say, actually this is a platform that has been put together by a group of people that understand what people actually need to know. So let's just get these basics done and then anything else we can help with.

Timothy R Andrews:00:28:37

In closing, what would you both like to see? Choose one thing for recruitment in the future.

Joe McDonnell:00:28:45

I mean, I would. I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I'd like to, I'd like to see. It will be a win.

Win is employers coming to the table from a partnership point of view, rather than, we're not talking about changing the nuts and bolts of an employee agreement, but in terms of the attitude it being, okay, how can I help you and how can you help me?If we can start asking that and meeting people where they are and saying, right, how can this be a mutually beneficial relationship beyond money, then I think all, a lot of the problems that we're seeing at the minute will, will fall away because it's, it has to, it has to be, it has to be an engagement that works for everybody, not just in the here and now, but as people look forward in their careers and in their sort of, to their future.And I think, yeah, it's one of the, it's one of the biggest relationships you've got is the one that you have with work and you know, it's a huge responsibility that you've got when you do employ somebody. And I think it's not just, it's not just, I think it's a duty to actually look after the people that work for you.

Akashia Carswell:00:29:45

And here's the thing, if you don't respect people in any walk of life, then you'll go, it's, it's, it's going to be a shit show. And, and I think people lack trust and respect and care in hospitality because I find it quite brutal. And it made me pause for a while in terms of sort of who I would work with and the type of people that I wanted to work with. And, and it always seems very pressurized and I think if people just took a minute and took a step back and the change I'd like to see is an understanding and a value placed on each job. Recruitment is part of hospitality.

Timothy R Andrews:00:30:35

What I'd like to see in the future is the hospitality people telling the truth in the interviews. Now, I don't mean. What I mean is saying, I'm going to offer you this, I'm going to offer you this rather than. So it's going to offer you a 45 hour week rather than, and sometimes you might need, it's off to say it's a 48 hour, possibly 50 hour week. There's some good things about this place. This is what they are. But you need to know before you get it, this is what some of the downfalls are. If we're honest about that. People are not coming in blind. And it's, it's something that I try and do when I'm interviewing people. So if people want to get hold of you about Hive, what do they need to do?

Akashia Carswell:00:31:18

Well, on November 4, London Lifestyle Awards has got an amazing event where they bring together all consumer industries in London over, I think, 20 categories. And there'll be a mini launch there. And then anytime after November, the fourth will be flooding your Instagram and socials with lots of information of what we're doing how you can sign up as a candidate. And if you're interested in taking your timeline down from four months to four hours as a client for mass recruitment, then definitely sign up as well. Our landing page is coming soon and I'd be very happy to provide details once those are available.

Timothy R Andrews:00:31:59

And if people want to get into contact with you about recruitment, what do they need to do?

Akashia Carswell:00:32:04

Www.londontalent.co.uk thank you very much.

Timothy R Andrews:00:32:10

Akashia, thank you for joining us today. It's been a pleasure, as always. Very informative, very informative. Thank you so much