What Lessons Can Hospitality Learn from the World of Drag?

Talking Hospitality (00:00.738)
The COVID-19 pandemic has had a devastating impact on the drag queen community. With bars and clubs closed for months on end, performers lost their primary source of income. Many were forced to find new jobs or rely on government assistance. In the early days of the pandemic, some drag queens turned to digital platforms to perform for their fans. They hosted virtual drag shows, sold merchandise online and even streamed their lives on social media. However, these efforts were not always enough to make ends meet.

And as the pandemic dragged on, many drag queens found new ways to adapt. Some started their own businesses, such as makeup tutorials or drag weave fitness classes, others turned to teaching or writing. And still others found new ways to perform, such as hosting drag branches or performing at outdoor events. As things have reopened, we want to find out what drag queens are doing now. Have things returned to normal or have things changed?

Talking Hospitality (01:02.432)
you

Talking Hospitality (01:09.183)
Welcome to a very special edition of Talking Hospitality with two T's and a catel. I'm Timothy R. Andrews and I'm delighted to share that we have a full house today. I'm joined by my wonderful co-hosts, the delightful Tracy Rashid and the fabulous Sarah Catel. We have quite a spectacle lined up for today. A round table discussion with three immensely talented and vivacious drag queens. From Flynn Burge, aka Linda Bacardi, Harry Casella,

aka Mario Kart and Steven Maugham aka Stephanie Von Keats. We're here courtesy of the Brighton Box Gallery who are sponsoring today's event. The Brighton Box is an LGBTQ plus owned award winning art gallery in the heart of the lanes, Brighton. Whatever your preferred style of art, the Brighton Box Gallery is able to offer a wide range of unique and local artists at thebrightonbox.com. Excited to have you all here with us today? So let's start from the very beginning.

So what we want to know is what inspired you to get into drag or let's use drag as a verb here. Why do you drag? Let's start with Flynn. I was inspired to be honest. I've been doing drag for about 50 years. I started with the likes of Lily Savage and whatever you started at the Black Cap in Camden. And I used to do websites with the likes of Sandra and Titi Lacam, Boy George Experience, some of which are still on the scene now.

and being quite technical and whatever you. And then one day I got asked to join in on the drug amateur dramatics group called the Drama Queens. And that inspired me to take it up full time. And then I turned from just somebody enjoy putting makeup on, being a man in a dress. It was an evolution and then I became a drug week. And 15 years later, she's still doing it. Amazing. Good way back then. Oh yeah, yeah. Here goes my name.

How about you Harry or Shagami Mary? You can call me everyone darling. Someone's calling me. So I started doing a lockdown. Before lockdown happened, I was a dancer on cruise ships for like five years. And then the pandemic put a halt to that because nothing could happen. So I basically came home and was like, I'm over dancing on cruise ships. I wanted to try something else. And I've always been a huge fan of drag and thought, well, I'll just give it a go. Screw it. Let's try it. So I spent most of lockdown watching tutorials.

Talking Hospitality (03:27.978)
learning about drag, going to see these two wonderful people here. I saw many shows, you too. I believe we worked together. Yes, we have. Yeah, we have. Watching and learning from what the queens are doing on the scene and kind of molding myself and, you know, taking bits and pieces from everywhere, like a jigsaw and kind of figuring out what I wanted to do and just taking inspiration from everywhere and I do it because not to like keep it on brand, but you know, it's Super Mario takes a magic mushroom or like, he gets big. That's how I feel.

When I do drag, like it's like I've taken like that super mushroom or that superstar and you're just living your best life. So I do it because nothing compares to that feeling when you're on stage and drag, like nothing compares to it. So that's why I do it and how I got into it. And Stephanie. So for me, I started 12 years ago this year. I was mentored by a drag queen called Bet Rinse.

And I did a guest spots at halfway to heaven every Tuesday. My first residency was at the Adbal Duncan in Soho. Mitchie have gone from there. Then I moved to Brighton, did a guest spot at the Queens arms with Cosmic. And it all kind of evolved from that point. And yeah, I mean, it's an honor to give back to the scene as well, because what we do is we have an open mic night at the Marine Tavern every Sunday, which encourages new artists to come and have a go, just do it and.

If it works, it works. If it doesn't just keep on going. And for me, I think drag is obviously a complete art form in itself. The message that you can leave a crowd with is always very powerful because you should always utilize your own voice and carry that forward. Thanks for bringing your voices to our show. In case some of our listeners, and they might, because we know some of our listeners, don't have a clue what drag is.

Here is a very brief history. Drag actually started as a necessity centuries ago when plays needed female characters, but they were played by men. God forbid women should be allowed to perform for a liling in the 17th century. In fact, it's thought to be called drag because of the long dresses worn by the actors and their dresses dragged on the ground. The times have changed and thank goodness that this is now an art form, not female impersonation. And it's a whole lot more than that.

Talking Hospitality (05:47.338)
And it's adored now in the mainstream and there's a staple of the entertainment offering within hospitality venues across the UK. So we've talked about history, but what is drag for you? And I'm going to start with Stephanie. So drag for me, I touched on it briefly earlier on, like Mary said, as well. It's very electric, that feeling when you have on stage, if you know that you have a room he was engaging with you, there's no better feeling. I think one of my

favorite moments actually is when it comes to I say festivals, but pride, because it's the message behind everything. And, you know, again, you have to push that message to everyone and I'm not pushing it in forcing it upon someone. It's giant. Yes. And it's, and it's just the respect behind everything and making sure everyone's included. I can't see myself doing anything else now. It's great. I mean, 12 years in, I'll be like 80s, you know, I'll last that long, but you know, who knows?

A change now, isn't it? Well, you know, you know, you know. And no offence, Linda. Wait, you know. Says the 50 year old wild card in the room. What are you, Harry? I'm Mary. Ethan's fine, darling. I think drag for me is just expression. And whether that's expression of gender, whether that's expression of arts, whether that's expression of creativity, to me, I don't think drag has one definition. I think it's evolved.

so exponentially now that there isn't, you can't define what it actually is. I know obviously you touched on what you're saying about what it used to mean or in theory used to mean back then, but I just think like, to me it is just expression and it's whether, whatever that encapsulates, whatever you want that to mean in your own drag, that to me is drag. You know, you can get glamorous queens, their whole thing is pageant style of drag, you can get gender non-conforming drag, you can get...

To me, everything is drag really. Like, I know not to quote RuPaul, but all born naked and the rest is drag. That to me actually really resonates because everything is like, everything is just, we put on clothing and we fit, you know, you express yourself in what you're wearing now. Every one of us is expressing something. So to me that is drag. Yeah, it's just expression of everything. Is that famous saying all drag is valid? Correct. I agree. And I love that word expression as well.

Talking Hospitality (08:08.462)
because everyone can express themselves. Exactly. There's no right or wrong. Exactly. It's just how you express yourself. And drag is just like in the traditional sense of it, it's just exaggerated expression. But it is an art form of 12. Absolutely. An art form of, and it's having, you know, it's a form of expression. Yeah. An individual. So Linda, you've done this for 15 years, Slemmon, you've done this for 12. Have you seen the drag scene change over the last decade or so? Definitely evolved.

definitely changed for the better, I think, because we started before RuPaul's Drag Race came along. And now it's encouraged a lot of people, because it's been in the mainstream a lot more, to do it. And I think that can only be a positive thing. To have the courage to even get on a stage and to be inspired or influenced by other people, certainly now. And years ago, there were matriarchs who paved the way, and that should never be forgotten either.

So it's different times, but again, there are queens who have done it for years who will always help newer artists like myself and others, give it back, help and encourage because if you don't, it'll go. Yeah. I mean for myself, I'm a child of the 70s and I was brought up watching the likes of the two Ronnies and Littlen and Large and Les Dawson, Larry Grayson. Some of them were quite bad gay stereotypes because of the climate.

the legal climate there was then, but there was also a lot, you know, so Kenneth Williams, there was also a lot of, uh, just circulation and, uh, you know, exaggeration, pomp and ceremony where I got my inspirations from was watching all that sort of laughter, variety, expression. And then that took me on a journey when I was a DJ in my twenties and in my youth. And then that went on to me in my thirties learning about drag, you know, I'm now 50,

where I started and I look at the pardon if this sounds condescending, it's not meant to an end. I see the new age of drag now. There's an old school, there's a new school, there's a new school, there's an old school. There might be those queens from an older generation such as myself, some more established than others, that will criticize the young style of drag. All the new schools, shall we say. But I know that it's an evolution. Love or hate.

Talking Hospitality (10:31.99)
RuPaul's Drag Race, but it inspires people. And as long as somebody takes something from it and makes it their own, if you copy it, you copy it and just put a lipstick on a mime to a Whitney Houston song and think, drag queen, that's not my thing. But if you take something from it, make it your own and you're inspired from it and then you perform and you can entertain. I'm all for that. That's the art and the creativity. Really incredible, isn't it? And I think the normalising of the acceptance as well, I think.

One of the best things that I've seen just in my personal life was my nephew. Absolutely loved Dracarys when it came out. He was about eight at the time. And it got to the point where when it came on the telly when it was on Saturdays or whatever, he would literally run to mum's closet, get a pair of high heels and around the living room while it was on. Which I think is the most beautiful thing because if you think back to, you know, when you were young, Flynn, would boys have been able to do that?

Obviously, I mean, this is an audio experience, but occasionally on my Facebook, there's a picture of me when I was eight years old and Stephen Hymne was seeing me when I was eight years old and my next door neighbor dressed me in her dress. Is it a balloon? Ray and Judy Garland pinny on and whatever. It's really flock wallpaper behind me. It's very sort of 1979.

That's the only one that's got me in a trip. I can pitch in this gallery as a postcard. That sounds amazing. What an image. Amazing. How did the lockdown affect you and how did you survive during this period?

Talking Hospitality (12:07.998)
Undoubtedly, the COVID-19 pandemic posed major challenges for performers worldwide. How did the lockdown affect you and how did you survive during this period when going to marry? I was addicted to TikTok. I just use that as a bit of an outlet. I used to just do home workouts. That's when I kind of started dabbling into drag as well. So I kind of used social media for that.

I drank my own body weighting wine every day. Just been watched so much TV. Yeah, I mean, for me, I just kind of, it was the time that I was experimenting with drag. So a lot of my time in COVID was focused on that. So if the pandemic didn't happen, do you think you'd have had the opportunity to focus on drag? I don't think so. I honestly don't think so because I think I was in the cruise ship career mind. So it was just contract after contract, after contract, after contract. I don't think it would have happened.

I've always had a love for it. I just don't think I've had time to solely focus on it. So who knows? I just don't think it would have. Why you guys? Ladies. So for me, it was a bit of a surreal time. I lived above a pub at the time. So we were literally locked in there for that all of lockdown. That was quite weird, but luckily we had a rooftop. So we can literally like get a bit of space. I remember once we were like,

peeping out the windows if you're watching TV downstairs having a roast dinner being like, oh my God, I'm just going to know we're in here. That was really crazy. And I did quite a few online shows. I got involved with the Drag Choir that thanked the NHS workers. That was really good. A lot of pre-recorded stuff was done. I had the police called on me twice whilst doing online shows because we were allowed to have a smoke machine blaring. I don't know why, but I pressed it. I was a bit too...

ego and then I opened the door, it was like stars in your eyes coming out. Yeah, it was very weird. But it was a time to get proactive. Certainly, you know, if things came along, I'd jump at it. Raising money online, like trying to survive. It wasn't great. I got the self-employment grants, all of them. Luckily others didn't. It was very, very stressful trying to even apply for that. But I was very grateful that I could get it. It was crazy.

Talking Hospitality (14:25.398)
you know, we got through it and... Came out very quickly. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think it was a chance to re-evaluate and just horrendous for other workers, let alone performers. It feels just about back to normal.

Before American listeners, because we do have some, what are self-employment grants? So self-employment grants, basically it was like a loan that you were going to pay back for sub-employed performers to survive for living costs, food costs, whatever. And I think they were basing on different salaries that you would submit for your tax return. And that's how they were basing what they were giving out to people. Well, two sides to our employment before and during lockdown. So.

since moving down here, as well as doing bits and pieces of drag at weekends, some bits in Brighton and some bits out of Brighton. I was also a carer through the early liberal dementia and actually worked in a care facility nearby here in Brighton, New South 6th. With the two main parts of UK's COVID, shall I say, in between the two, my husband worked at the NHS, so he couldn't work in his environment. He was a manager.

data procurement up in London. So he had to work from home and I was working in a care home and all of a sudden I had to stop working in a care home because sadly my husband passed away. It was and still is a bit of a journey, but what it will save for drag for me during the second half, you know, I've always been quite technically minded and I bought a green screen and when we were allowed to even step around and we, we would do these.

Skype, but something, you know, these sort of online chats and then I'd upload them on Facebook with certain tracks, you know, Warner Chapel music and all that kind of thing. For me, what I'm coming out of it actually, from somebody who's still coming out the other end, but still suffering grief of what I've found of the drag for me, not a facade, but it empowers me. It gives me a chance to know what I do actually, makes me feel better about myself and if I can entertain other people, then all the better.

Talking Hospitality (16:37.458)
I think also whilst doing the online shows, a lot of people were commenting saying like, thank you for getting us through, thank you for helping. Like it was a distraction for them just to watch something because it got a little bit mundane, didn't it? Like just sat in them doors all the time. And then when they said you allowed certain amounts of exercise, I mean... Let them go for a walk. Yes, let's jog on the spot.

You're American listeners, obviously. Be very, very familiar with RuPaul's Drag Race coming out of that. I mean, UK Season 1, I acted Molda Wanda's paperwork filling in for Bag of Chicks. And then, no, this is an entirely true story. Me and Bag go, oh, go way back. Not like that, but yes, we've been good friends for a very long time. And then coming out of lockdown and everything else, still having the green screen, I had the honor of being able to record. Lovely.

Miss Clit for season two and you got quite far with that, didn't you? Yeah. Yes. Wow. I gave it a go. I'm a very trying woman. See, what I love about that is, we were saying how things were quite repetitive.

And you know, the TV we did watch, I mean, we all completed Netflix, like it was gaming, I just watched everything. And there was no new TV being made. They just couldn't do it. But actually giving you guys that space to then go on social media and create that content to bring, I mean, people like me, basically just more of what I wanted. And loads of people felt like that, you know, what we serve through the media generally, there was a cutoff point. There was a certain amount of what you can watch, an amount of what's being made. But actually.

You guys then had that space to fill the gaps that all of us wanted, I think, which was a gift. It is quite nice because Facebook has the memories thing, doesn't it? Yeah. So some of the videos that I did throughout Lockdown often pop up now. And I'm like, gosh, like there was one green screen thing we had. It was like, I was like running through a bloody roller coaster. It was nuts, but it was, yeah, it's nice to have those kind of memories to look back on as well. So the three of us here, we have a good friend called Mrs. Moore, John Moore.

Talking Hospitality (18:51.094)
He was the best man at my wedding, ironically. Brother from another mother. Yeah, we go way back and it was his kind of thing. Even though he didn't have all the tech kind of stuff and he only had an iPhone, which I got hold for him and some sort of bits and pieces, which Sally Vape, Brighton Queen would do. Basically, he would do this kimono thing where pretty much only dressed in his empress new clothes and some underwear. He'd wear this.

No, no, no

Talking Hospitality (19:49.81)
If you were doing it legally, you could actually get some money from it. But even if it wasn't about the money, it was about the sanity. Even if you're insane to do it. It's quite hard as a performer when you don't have an audience. Exactly, it's the worst thing I've seen. Yeah. Very two-dimensional. You get in your head a bit. Yeah. It's quite funny because obviously you're playing different personalities when you're on stage. And when you're talking to a computer screen, your other personality, talking to people who are...

just watching, you can't gauge a reply, you can't gauge a laughter. That energy is missing isn't it? I think it was nice when you saw the reactions and people putting love hearts and engaging with you. And then you end up saying hello to multiple people like, hello so and so. And then you're like, oh I should do a song now. It's clear that all of you are not only immensely talented, but also incredibly resilient.

Your stories have been truly inspiring and enlightening. So thank you for sharing that with us.

What would people do to support their local drag ads? I think to support local drag is to just go see local drag. Obviously with the success of Drag Race, everybody flocks to the Drag Race shows when these Drag Race queens are performing and I go see them, they're great because they're still dragged. I'm intrigued to see what they can do off of the show. But I think in terms of supporting local queens is go and see local queens. Don't just flock to mainstream queens.

This city is thankfully so rich with the amount of drag that we have here. And you can go any night of the week here in Brighton and to any of the bars and you'll see a drag show, whether it's a bingo, whether it's a quiz, whether it's a full on cabaret. There's so much out there that you don't need to just focus on the mainstream. Like, and I actually think this is probably controversial, but I actually think it's better. I think a lot of the times just seeing local drag is just better and seeing somebody that you've never heard of.

Talking Hospitality (21:49.746)
you may never see again or you'll follow them or whatever. I think that is the best thing. Like that is just, that to me is what true British drag is. Like going to these pubs, going to these nightclubs, seeing that, that to me is British drag. And, you know, I utilize social media. I know a lot of us do follow them on social media, see what they're doing, buy merchandise, you know, if they stream a song or release a song, go and, you know, support in that way. But I think the main thing is to just go and see them. And talk to us. We all talk after shows. Yeah. We all talk and we're not.

I don't think anyone here in the city particularly is a diva that's done and that's it. And then they walk off. We probably are all pissed with you after. We're about to be on it. No, and I think that's another thing. Don't be afraid to talk to us. Like we're not monsters. Like come in with human beings and talk to us. We're exactly the same as you. Like, I think it is, like you say, just encouraging everyone and like going to see people. And obviously the venues that we perform in needs an audience. So.

use it or lose it because once venues start going and artists can't perform, what can we do? Yeah, we're in a central cog in the wheel. Yeah, yeah. A cog in the wheel, a cog in the machine. Yeah, yeah. And entertainment, whether it be drag, singers, bands, does bring in crowds. Yeah. If people are spending, it helps the venue out and it helps the artists out. And we do it so well, don't we, as a nation? I always think that whenever I go and see something live, not something that's, you know,

necessarily big stadium vibe, but whenever I go to something that's fairly local or just at a theatre, I'm like, we're so good. Yeah, we're so good at it. And the diversity of it as well. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I love a festival vibe, but there's nothing better than going to a very intimate space to see a show that it feels like you have more of a connection. It's nice, it's really nice, you know, and you feel something and that's great. I've known sign language for about 20 years.

And I recently had the opportunity through just signing a number in a drag show a few years ago, pre-COVID. And then somebody said, Oh, would you do Worthing Pride? Would you do Seaford Pride? Would you do Southampton Pride? Great young. So now I'm actually a signer. I do it in drag most of the time. It's so casual. And I love doing it. And that was actually one of the things that helped me, should we say, mentally.

Talking Hospitality (24:15.586)
disability inclusivity basis. I'm epileptic and for me to, I'm stood on the stage and it wouldn't, if you've got a huge field of people wouldn't matter whether it was three people or 300 that were deaf and ambitio or hard of hearing in, you know, in that field. I was at Southampton once and I was doing Bad to the Devil You Know by Kylie and sign language. And then I spot it because of their body language, three deaf gay chaps, the corner and they're going, I'm illustrating with my hands.

thank you for enjoying yourselves and British Sign Language to me. Shortly after bereavement I suffered, I was just, I had to go stage-fighting this kind of thing, pulling my own self. And if something like, the gift that I've got, whether it be doing Dragon singing songs or whether doing Dragon signing to them, if something I can do gives something back, they'll appreciate what we all do at home. It's fulfilling. It really is fulfilling.

One more question for you, though. Do you ever embellish? Do you directly translate or do you add a few extras? No, depending on context, I might have to find a keyword and build around. You know, I was going to say find context, but no, I mean, it's only a family event. There are certain V words and C words and other words that we couldn't possibly mention on air, let alone in a field.

Talking Hospitality (25:40.962)
Thank you for sharing your experiences. It's really important, but we do know that there are people listening that might still construct me, might be going through some difficult situation themselves. What advice would you give to them? I want to start with you, my right wing and you being Mary. Find something joyful every single day. Find joy in something, whether it's, I don't know, cutting your nails. I don't care whether it's like, I don't know.

having a shower, find the joy in at least one thing you do every day. And if you start to build on that as like a daily manifestation, it will translate to a free day life. So find something that makes you happy, that brings you joy, something you love. Whether, you know, you're the type of person that being charitable makes you happy and you want to give back to something or someone, whatever it is, it can be so mind you, just find joy every single day and

it will manifest into such a bigger thing. It's something about positivity, I think. No matter what hardships you face at the end of the day, you find something you're good at or find something that interests you, take it, harness it, and just hold onto it and feed off of it, but to know this can make me feel better about myself. And that's what I do every day. I'd always say never feel like you're alone. Always make sure you have good people around you.

always communicate where you can, always remember that things always will get better. If you have a positive outlook, it's like when you talk and you smile, you have that automatic response. If you just have that positive attitude, things will always happen for the good. That's my philosophy and I always stick by it. Positiveity is key. Negativeity never helps. I know, and as much as sometimes some people, they can find it hard to find positivity.

look around, look around you, you know, find inspiration at the end of the day. Life's too short. And we all have off days. That's just human nature, but just always. Don't make it all the time. There's one popular drag queen says, can I get an amen up in here? Your passion for the art of drag is infectious. So thank you all for sharing your experiences and for adding a touch of glamour and glitter to our show today. We did, we did have someone in drag earlier. That's why we're saying.

Talking Hospitality (28:07.063)
Mary was looking way fabulous. Yes, I am now. Putting a sword to shame. Still fabulous. And there's Ninja and I like Death Becomes her. Thank you, Flynn, Harry and Stephen for joining us on this episode. And a huge thank you to our listeners for tuning in to Talking Hospitality with two T's and a catelle. We hope you enjoyed this journey into the world of drag as much as we did.

Don't forget to subscribe on your favourite podcast platform and leave a review if it's nice and join us next time as we continue to explore all things hospitality. Stay fabulous.