What Are The Barriers To Women In Leadership?

Theme Tune00:00:03

The voices, you know, Timothy, Tracy and Joe on the show. From front of house to chefs on the line, every voice can shape the future each time. Every voice can.

Timothy R Andrews00:00:26

Mex Ibrahim, welcome to Talking Hospitality. You are the co-founder of Women in the Food Industry.

Mex Ibrahim00:00:33

Welcome. I am, yeah. Hi.

Timothy R Andrews00:00:34

Welcome to the show.

Tracey Rashid00:00:36

Welcome.

Mex Ibrahim00:00:37

Thank you. Good to be here.

Timothy R Andrews00:00:38

I'm very excited about having you on. Well, ever since I first met you, I said, you need to come on. You've got something to say, so you better have something to say. No pressure.

Tracey Rashid00:00:47

I'm listening. As a woman in the food industry, I am listening intently to every word you say. Mex again, no pressure, right?

Mex Ibrahim00:00:53

Okay.

Tracey Rashid00:00:55

I was like, yes. Okay, this is my question, definitely.

Timothy R Andrews00:00:58

So Mex, you co founded Women in the Food Industry. What is that exactly?

Mex Ibrahim00:01:04

So we are a social enterprise.We've only been a social enterprise for the last almost two years, but we were actually founded just as a normal organization in the year before lockdown. So in 2019, we. We were kind of bootstrapping it then. So we always knew that we were really a cause.And what we are, really, what we see ourselves at, is a community where women across the entire food industry, so not just hospitality and not just chefs, but food producers, bakers, butchers, people in food policy, dietitians, nutritionists, women in drinks, women everywhere that touches food professionally can get involved, come to our events.And we want to provide a platform and shine a spotlight on what women are doing in the industry so that we can all see that there are loads of women out there in the industry who are doing amazing things. It's just a lot of the time spotlight's not thrown on them.Because what we know is that Even though, say 60% of the hospitality industry is women, there are 60% of women in the hospitality industry, probably only about 20, 20% or even lower than that, that are in management positions. And then basically the vast majority of women in the industry are just not being heard. We wanted to change that.So we wanted to do that by, like I said, shining a spotlight on what they're doing, telling their stories, providing a place where they can network, usually in real time, in person events.We do lots and lots of features on what women are up to in the industry so that they can really, other people can look up to that and say, oh, great, I didn't know that you could be a food scientist. I didn't know that you could be a recipe developer. I didn't know that all of these other roles existed.Cause I think people think that it's just about you know, food is just about chefing or just about being a chef. And we know it's far more than that.And there are lots of parts of the industry that actually are kind of a little bit more acceptable for a lot of women, particularly if they're women who have families or young children.There are certain many parts of the industries where women can thrive, and we want to sort of like, show that, but we also want to try to help women, give them the confidence they can build up and learn from each other and then hopefully get to those positions of leadership. So it's a big ask because it's across the entire industry. It's not just hospitality.

Tracey Rashid00:03:38

But we have to start somewhere.

Mex Ibrahim00:03:40

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tracey Rashid00:03:42

And you mentioned that you. Well, I know that you've spotlighted a lot of incredible women, so I've got a list like Asma Khan, Lucy Vincent, Dawn Davis, Lisa Goodwin-Allen.And, you know, you talked about the fact that visibility and storytelling is crucial in what you do as an organization, but how powerful do you think it is in creating change within the industry?

Mex Ibrahim00:04:05

Yeah, I mean, that's a really, really good question.Because I think one of the things about change is that you've got to, you know, as Beyonce says, or as someone says, I'm sure it was Beyonce said, you know, you can't be it if you can't see it. So if you literally cannot see the storytelling shows that these great women exist and shows that they are out there. So that in itself is putting.Making people aware that women like Asma Khan exist and women are able to come into an industry not from a chefing background or able to come into it slightly older, start a supper club from home, invite their friends round to help cook with them, and then eventually get onto Netflix. And her world completely changed.And, you know, asthma is a huge inspiration for us because when she got all of that fame and her world did change, she didn't just sit back on her laurels and think, brilliant. I've been on Netflix as a chef's table. That's it. She now wants to use that sort of fame and that power to help other women and help raise them up.And something that she said to me, which always resonates now and will forever, is she uses this Madeleine Albright quote, the American politician Madeleine Albright, who said, there's a special place in hell for a woman that doesn't help another woman. So we're all about women helping each other. So that, I believe, is where the change can happen.Obviously, we need men as well, but the vast majority of what we do is women helping other women.Because if you've been usually you will find, I suppose because you don't hear stories from other women so often they're not in the press, that you think if you're going through a problem, you think, well, no one else is going through that. It's just me. It must be just me that this is happening to me. And we're about there to say, no, it's not just you. Other people have experienced it.Other people have had imposter syndrome. Other people have felt like, I'm not as good as other people. Other people have felt, oh, my God, when am I going to get funding?Other people have felt, oh, my social media is really rubbish. Other people feel all these things. But as you just said as well, everyone has to start somewhere. And it's really. That is what we want to try and do.Because I think the women that are part of our organization are from. Because they're from all types of the industry.We get some really junior people, but we also get some really senior people who've been really supportive and helpful to us. Like Emma Heal from the MD of Lucky Saint has been like a great champion, literally right from the start.And I think that was possibly because we started interviewing her back in lockdown when Lucky Saint wasn't as big as it is now. And I remember we went for a walk in Kew Gardens when lockdown was still on and you could only walk in the open air.And we had this interview and she was just saying, oh, yeah, things are going all right. In fact, things seem to be picking up a little bit more now that there's lockdown. And then just literally it. You know, Lucky Saint is now everywhere.It's one of those brands that everyone recognizes and knows. Whatever pub you go into, you will see Lucky Saint.So people like her and people like another person that's again, been in the industry for a long time, but is also super supportive and really helpful is Ramona (Hazan) from Ramona's Hummus. Well, it's called Ramona's Kitchen, but she's been making hummus for the last, oh, goodness, 13 years.And now, you know, it started off as a family recipe. Now her.You'll recognize it from the bright yellow packaging with the red print on it or the pink print on it is in literally every single supermarket. But she's really great at telling where she started.You know, obviously it's taken her a lot of hard work and a lot of determination and a lot of having to Change things to get there. But she's, again, a really, really generous person with her time and wants to really help other women. So those two are perfect.I think examples of how that can.Just speaking to them and just hearing what they've got to say and then being very generous with their time can make a change because it makes you feel right that person managed to do it. Maybe I can do it. And it's only really that need of knowing that maybe you can do something that that makes the change.If you feel that you can't do anything or you can't start your own business or that you will never have success because you don't see anybody else doing it and you see all of these wonderful stories, but with no. Well, it's not always been like that. With no reality behind it, you're not going to. Nothing will ever change.So we believe that that's where the change can come from. It's the storytelling, it's the encouragement and it's very much women supporting other women. But.But as I said, I do feel that we need more male allies and I would love to see more men helping us.

Tracey Rashid00:08:48

Yeah.

Mex Ibrahim00:08:56

Excellent.

Tracey Rashid00:08:56

And I think women, us ladies, we're very good at that negative self talk, especially when it comes to business and careers. With that aside, what other barriers are women kind of finding in the food and hospitality industry?

Mex Ibrahim00:09:10

I mean, I think they're barriers that people, women find in, in most industries, to be honest, I think they're possibly a little bit more apparent in the food industry, particularly in hospitality, because the hours are so punishing and you can't. We're not saying that restaurants or businesses don't need to run until like one o' clock in the morning or anything like that. They do.Obviously, with hospitality business people expect us, people expect hospitality be open, all of those hours, but those hours are punishing. And if you do want a family or you want to feel that you're really supportive with your family, sometimes it's just not compatible.So things like, things that could help that are things like better childcare or cheaper childcare or at least available childcare, any of those would certainly help in a big way.Possibly a sort of like even a cultural change, because even in, like, in, in countries like Scandinavia, they have a completely different attitude to childcare than we have over here in the uk. So it's not. We're not asking for things that are rocket science. We're not asking for things that no one's ever done before that.It's like, oh my God, that's an amazing thing. No one's ever thought of it, no one's ever done it. There's plenty of countries that are actually already doing it.I think we just need to make sure that it's implemented in the UK a lot more. Obviously, there are things we've got equality in terms of central. Well, we've got equal pay, but we are still seeing within the.You know, within the food industry in general, because women are not at management levels or in the main. Or the majority of women who work in the food industry aren't at management level, senior management level. That's why the salary.That's why there is that salary gap. Obviously, people are getting paid the same for doing the same thing.But if you've got a lot of men that are at leadership positions and at management positions, clearly it's going to look like men are earning more.Well, they are because they're in the more senior roles, because they've not necessarily had to take time out to have children or not had to take time out. If they have paternity leave, it's not as long as a woman taking maternity leave. And also to go back after you've had a child is quite.I think it takes a very progressive organisation to treat that person in exactly the same way as to before they had a child, because you are gonna be different also. I think another thing that isn't really spoken about as much is at the other end of that scale is menopause.Older women do have issues that mean that their work, when they get older, obviously they've got all of the experience, which is absolutely fantastic and is great. But if you are going through the menopause, you do get a bit of brain fars. You do get like the, you know, the heat things.You do get all sorts of things which will unfortunately affect your work.Obviously there are things that can be dealt with and it's not going to be like continual thing, but there are going to be occasions when people do need to feel that they can take some time out because they're experiencing brain fuzz or whatever through, you know, through the menopause. And it's quite hard if you having to explain that to your boss, if your boss is a man, your boss is a woman.Much easier to be able to explain that because you feel. Yes, they've either been through it themselves or they're going to go through it. So they will understand.Whereas a man is possibly less likely to understand or appreciate or empathize. I suppose, with that, I think it's really the empathy that is really important. And that's what really we need men for.And we need collaboration all the time, which is kind of like one of our mantras is our mantras always being collaboration, not competition. So it's collaboration with other women, but it's also collaboration with men because we're not. We're not competing.We're not trying to say that women are ever going to be, you know, we're not saying that women are better than men. We're just saying that we're all equal. And it's all about that diversity and that equality that really needs to come through properly.It's not just paying lip service to it. It's real, proper equality.

Tracey Rashid00:13:05

I think it's interesting you bring up menopause because one of our pre episodes in season five, we were talking about mental health and having to come in because you have a mental health issue to say, I can't come into work today when it's a physical issue. I think you said like a tummy upset or something like that. Everyone's like, yeah, sure.But as soon as I feel like if it's a mental issue or it's a very female specific issue, then suddenly it's just like, well, just come in, you'll be fine. They take some paracetamol. Yeah, something like that. So it's a hard one to overcome.But like you said, I think the collaboration with men and understanding the amount of information. I've learned so much in the last five years about menopause because people are talking about it and people sharing their stories and being open.Perimenopause is a word I didn't even know existed from, for example. So little things, the little steps do make a big, A big difference, I would say for sure.

Mex Ibrahim00:13:57

Absolutely. Yeah. There's more and more people talking about menopause now and there's certainly organizations that are trying to do things about it.I think I learned from a woman that works at Tesco the other day that they're certainly looking at even like the uniforms that people wear to make sure that they're, you know, they've got less nylon or they're more breathable. So that if you are experiencing things like a hot flush, it's.It's not going to be as bad for you as if you were wearing some sort of like horrible synthetic outfit which clings to you and makes you feel hotter than ever. Things like making sure that, you know that air conditioning is always on and adjusted and is made, you know, that people are made to Feel okay.If they feel like they want to say, you know what, it feels really hot in here. Can we have the air conditioning up? It's not like, oh, no, it's just you. It's like, all right, yeah, let's listen to that. What can we do about that?So it's all. Again, none of these are rocket science. They're not, like, hard, like, eureka moments.They're all things that, if you think about practically the things. But they've probably all come from someone that's been through that themselves and have come from a woman. That's a female lens.And that's why we need more women leaders and more women in management, in the entire food industry, and particularly within hospitality.

Tracey Rashid00:15:11

I was gonna say, what advice would you give to women that are looking to progress in the leadership or entrepreneurial path in the food industry?

Mex Ibrahim00:15:18

Yeah, I mean, I would say speak to or try to surround yourself. I would say with as many people who you believe are strong and, you know, certainly stronger than you. It's, you know, no one. If you. Again, it's.I can't remember who said the quote, but, like, it's like, if you're the strongest person in the room or you're the. You know, you're the. The brightest person in the room, you need to get into another room.There's going to be always people that know more than you and that experience more than you. And if you can surround yourself with those people, it will rub off and it will help. So it's kind of like finding your own tribe.You don't want people who can't empathize as well. So it's the strength. But I think it's knowing that they've been through problems and been through struggles that really, really does. And also ask.Because the worst, you know, it's. I was always surprised, I suppose, about asking people who you think like, oh, they'll never say yes. They'll just never say yes to this.They'll never. They'll never do this.

Timothy R Andrews00:16:27

Okay.

Mex Ibrahim00:16:28

A lot of them might not, and a lot of them might say no.But we've had so many occasions when people who we felt wouldn't come to our events or wouldn't share our events or wouldn't be on our panels, and they did like us. So our second ever event in person was hosted by Andi Oliver. And it was just like, what? We've only done one other event. We're kind of like, no one.And she reached out to us and said, how can I help? I said, oh, it would Be great if you were on the panel. And she said, well, you know what? Why don't I chair it? Like what?And so she shared, literally, our second event. And I thought, been super supportive since then.And there's no, you know, I hadn't had any real proper connection with her before that, apart from we spent a lot of our time initially at the start on Twitter. We spent quite a lot of time on Twitter when Twitter was Twitter and when it wasn't X and when it wasn't a horrible place.And so it's kind of ironic now, and which is, I think one of the reasons why I still can't quite leave it, is that it really massively helped us at the start because we were doing lots of live tweets and things around shows like Saturday Kitchen.We were reaching out, you know, the women in the food industry started as a Twitter account, and we just happened to reach out to women that we admired, women that we knew in the industry.My background is that I used to work for Great British Chefs, which is the big food website, and I was there for eight years, so I was there quite a long time. So I knew a lot of chefs and people in the food industry, but I didn't know Andi Oliver. I didn't know her.I mean, I think I've seen her at Taste of London, but I didn't, you know, I didn't really know her. And it was only really through us doing lots of tweets around Sassy Kitchen when she was on.She sort of saw us and looked back at our Twitter feed and saw what we were doing and said, yeah, literally said, how can I help? She's so kind of, like, amazing. So, yeah, I think, yeah, it's a case of feeling that, yeah, reach out to people and don't be.Don't take it personally if they say no, or don't take it personally if they ignore you. Because we all get emails that we feel like, well, I'm not really going to answer that. And it's. I'd rather. I'd rather just ignore it than say no.It's a human thing. It's not that it doesn't reflect on you that they're doing that. It's just where they happen to be coming from. They're super busy or whatever.But you will be amazed at the amount of people that if you ask them to help and do it in a, you know, really like a polite and empathetic way, and I'm sure now you can potentially even use AI to help you a Lot with that sort of research which we, you know, which didn't have when we started in the food industry. A lot of that, you can, it can speed up what you want to say to people.You can write what you were going to say, you can rewrite it in chat GPT, you can, you can put in information about their background, you can sound like you're really super intelligent and smart and you've really done a load of research on them. Whereas chatgpt most of it. Again, nothing wrong with that. Let's, let's, you know, AI is not going to go away.Let's use it and let's not be scared of it. Let's use it to the best of our abilities.So I would say definitely do not be afraid to reach out to people and ask for help and ask if you can spare, if they could spare 10 minutes of their time or 20 minutes of their time or you can take them out for a coffee or you can, you know, just say what you feel that you can do so that it's not like a complete one way thing that's going on.

Tracey Rashid00:20:00

Yeah, brilliant, thank you.

Timothy R Andrews00:20:01

So if you're a woman working in hospitality or even a man thinks actually I want to support this, where can people go to find you?

Mex Ibrahim00:20:09

Yeah, I mean it's very really easy. Where the website is womeninthefoodindustry.com on that you will find all of our socials, you will find a couple of links.One is a link to sign up to our newsletter which is fortnightly newsletter. So we send that out and it's not just got our own events in it, we put in things that we find are interesting from other partners.So that's certainly the best way to get involved. We do have a small membership but it's completely optional if you want to support us in that way. It's literally £25 a year.If you feel you want to put some money where your mouth is because it helps us with website hosting really is doing that more than anything else, to be honest. So they're the two ways that you can potentially help.And as I said with our newsletters you'll get a lot back in return because we do not just say what all the women in the food industry events are. We have our interviews in it. We have lots of things going on with our partners. We talk about awards that you can enter.We have often have tickets to trade shows, we have free tickets that sometimes our partners are just offering us as exclusives or we have discounts which are just offered to us as exclusives. So we have. There's a lot. Our newsletters are fortnightly years. Free membership to the Craft Guild of Chefs, all sorts of things that we offer.

Timothy R Andrews00:21:35

Feel free to interview our very own Tracey Rashid. Because she's got a story, right? She's got a story.

Mex Ibrahim00:21:41

Yeah, let's do that.

Tracey Rashid00:21:42

Yeah. Amazing.

Timothy R Andrews00:21:44

Which will be a subject of another podcast, but getting there first. So, Mex, thank you very much. We will of course put a link to your website. We will of course put.We will of course put a link in the description of our podcast. We'll of course put a link to the website in the description of our podcast underneath.But also if people are listening, if you go to the talkinghospitality.com website, have a look there, you look under guest profile, Mex Ibrahim, then you can go there and you'll be able to contact her directly that way as well. Mex, thank you so much.

Mex Ibrahim00:22:19

It's a fascinating story.

Timothy R Andrews00:22:20

It is! Unfortunately, we don't have enough time, but we will be back with you on another podcast or venture.And I'm really pleased that you've given us the time today. So thank you very much. Keep going and any way we can support. We're very happy to do so.

Theme Tune00:22:44

The voices, you know, Timothy, Tracy and Joseph on the show, from front of house to chefs on the line, every voice can shape the future each time. Every voice can shape the future.