What’s the Real Cost of Ignoring Mental Health in Hospitality?

It's not your job as an employer to educate people around what mental health is. Post pandemic, people understand what mental health is and how it operates better than ever before.This generation of people in hospitality understand it better.And so it's your job now to put practical tools in place and manage in a way that responds and respects where people are at and allows for them to flourish and have long and healthy careers in the industry.

One of the things that Kelly's Cause was really adamant about was, well, yeah, you can't decide what's going on if you can't have LGBT or you can't have something about women on there. And it's not comment on the employee, it's just it was part of the conversation.

Good morning.

Welcome to the show. We are delighted to have the lovely Rachel Kerr-Lapsley on. Hello. How are you doing today?

I'm good, thank you. I would rate my wine bike here 410.

So in case you can't tell and you can hear lots of collapsing, all our cameras are falling down. That's modern technology for you, folks. This brought to you for YouTube, right? Can't beat Bluetooth.

It shook me right up. I'm immediately like a 9 out of 10. I like a bit of faffing around, a little physical comedy.

It's all for you. It's all for you.

Elaborate gag.

It's got another 20 minutes of this. She came here on a day off, you know, for this.

Right.

Okay. Rachel, how are you?

Yeah, I am. I'm good. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Yeah, it's really exciting. I've been wanting you to come on for ages and we've talked about it, and now you're finally here. But why are you here and who are Kelly's claws?

What's happening?

I ask myself this all the time. Okay, so I'm Rachel Curlapsley and I'm the managing director at Kelly's Cause.Kelly's Cause is a charity that provides mental health support within hospitality specifically. And everyone who works for the charity is all hospitality background.And it was started in honor of a chef named Kelly who really sadly died by suicide when they were 23.And their best friend, Tobiana, who was also a chef, was looking around their own kitchen, being like, there are so many people here who I know are in pain and probably walking the same path, and I haven't the first clue what to do or how to help them.And so they went and trained as a mental health first aid instructor with mental Health First Aid England, they work with them to adjust the curriculum to be applicable. And this would have been like, I mean, seven years ago probably.And at that point the conversations around mental health, particularly in the industry, I mean there was really nothing at that point.And the mental health training that you could find was so corporate and it was like somebody who'd worked in an office for 50 years coming in and being like, well guys, use your benefits package and at 5 o' clock do some deep breathing and it's like if you're a chef you're like, fuck you. Like, fair enough. Like it doesn't make any sense.It's a different beast Al together and the need was just there and it's steadily grown and grown and grown. And now we're a team of five. We've trained over 2,000 people in mental health first aid skills and it just keeps on keeping on.And yeah, that's why I'm here.

Amazing.

Everyone feels bad, so I'm here, I mean, having a hard time.

What you do is quite different to some of the other people that are out there. So, you know, cuz there's a lot of people saying we're supporting mental health and I do feel like the message is finally getting through to people.It's taken a really long time in our industry, it's still got a long way to go.But what I Quite like about McElity course is you work with the employer as opposed to saying, right, there's some courses, we've trained you up, that's the end of it, where you actually demand a commitment from the employer, which I think is really, it's really something new.

Well, I think also awareness is great and I'm really so pleased that on World Mental Health Day you like send an email blast to your team, but your team members aren't going to you to learn about mental health, they're going to Instagram, they're going to their family members, they're going to their Instagram. I just aged myself, didn't I? I think they're on TikTok, you know, they're not coming to you.Hopefully they're talking to like their GP or people that know some stuff. If your GP happens to know some stuff.But it's not your job as an employer to educate people around what mental health is and being realistic, they're not listening to you about that, you're their boss. It doesn't make any sense.And instead of spending all that money and time being like, awareness, awareness, awareness, we're post pandemic people understand what mental health is and how it operates better than ever before. This generation of people in hospitality understand it better than ever before.And so it's your job now to put practical tools in place and manage in a way that responds and respects where people are at and allows for them to flourish and have long, healthy careers in the industry.

Do you still find resistance from employers to what you're offering and kind of, what does that look like? How can you tackle it? So let's say you've got an employer comes to you and says, I want to do something about mental health, there's some obstacles.Maybe you could give a couple of examples of what that might look like, and then what solution did you give to help that employer? So if someone's listening now, for example.

I think the biggest thing we run against is we do meet resistance nine times out of ten. It's about finances. They just can't afford to bring in support. So we fundraise all year long.And we are a bad funding model because we'll go to, like, bigger funders like National Lottery, and they're like, okay, you trained in an industry that doesn't believe in mental health, that has no money.And we're like, yes, not a great economic model, but the people in the industry have been phenomenal, and restaurants and businesses and individuals, and they put one pound on their bills in May and they run the marathons for us and they collect wherever they can. And we fundraise all year long. We make money from our events. People come and they buy tickets.And all of that means that we can heavily, heavily subsidize absolutely everything we offer, so everything is cheaper, if not free. So we'll work with businesses to be like, okay, listen, the dream for you, you can't afford what is going to make the biggest impact.Let's listen to sort of where you're at, the other training your managers have, what they feel confident in, what's going to be the highest impact thing that'll create the most longevity and lasting change within the business. Where can we come with a subsidy and help that fit into what you've got going on? And let's work together to find a solution.There's not a world in which there's nothing you can do.And I think that there's a real resistance sometimes from employers because they feel like, oh, we can't fix everything, or, oh, it's just too big a mountain to climb, or, well, I don't have an L and D budget, or I don't have An HR team or I don't have a this and I'm like, cool. Do you have three hours and a critical thought like let's, there's something to do here always.You know, like before you think really big, it would be amazing if you can get all the training in the world and have a really great policy in place and have robust checks and balances in your business. It's amazing if you have time for formal assessments with team members, if you can do mental health check ins.Like all of that is incredible and a lot of businesses are able to achieve it, which is phenomenal. But a lot can. Some because of poverty, some because of time poverty to some because of lack of will or lack of training, whatever the case might be.But what you can do is, you know, give your team members their rotas more than 48 hours in advance of their week.It's not earth shattering stuff but the impact that that will make on people's ability to have work life balance, to get proper rest, which makes a huge difference in terms of their mental health. You can do that tomorrow. And you don't need me and you don't need Kelly's cause you just need to listen and pay attention to your staff.Like wouldn't it be beautiful if the work we do could be redundant, if we could do like super fun events every once in a while, you know, but that we are so far from that. And thank God because I need a job.

But yes, charities are one of the few industries in the world where they work to make themselves, you know.

Yeah, it's like us and Hinge.

So yeah, speaking my language, definitely. Like I think it's so important, like we still have, I think a huge gap in how we like across society. Right.How we prioritize physical health over mental health is you can call in sick for a bad stomach or a cold or flu, but you can't as acceptably even still say, hey, I'm having a wobble today, I'm feeling really anxious or I'm feeling really depressed or anything. It's. We can't even call in sick for that, let alone it be part of the necessarily the wellness plan of a company.

I mean there are still businesses in this industry where you can't call in sick at all. So like we're so far behind and I think sometimes we're all in a bit of a bubble because I mean everyone here, we talk about this stuff all the time.We're talking to more forward thinkers and it's shocking when I go into businesses that are well established brand names, chefs, you know, operators, you know, and I look behind under the hood of those businesses, I'm like, oh, my God, there's so much work left to do.

Right?

But to your point, I think you have to think about it from an economic perspective, especially right now. I know everyone today that you talk to, I'm sure will bang on about April, but it's true. And the pinch is very real. Real.But 85% of hospitality workers reported feeling symptoms of poor mental health over the past year. And only 25% of hospitality employers have access to mental health support. Of that mental health support access, how accessible is it really?How useful is it to them? Are they able to utilize it? Is it in a language that they understand? Is it accessible to them in the times they have off work?If they do access that support, are they then supported by the business? Right.So if they access support and that support says, hey, listen, we're going to give you an appointment for X, Y and Z, but then they can't get the time off to attend that appointment or they're punished for attending that appointment somehow, then your support's worthless. So of that 25% of employers that have that support, is it effective? And have you talked to your team members about it?Have you been like, hey, does this help you? What would help you? What can we do? How can we manage you better in the job that you were in last? What did they do and was that helpful?Like, instead of feeling competitive, sort of. I think it's important to just be open about what's worked.And it's the first thing I tell people when they come and they're like, I got this team member and they're dealing with this issue and I've never dealt with it before. And then I'm like, well, have you asked them about what their experience is like?And have you talked to them about who is the best boss you ever worked for? What was the best hospitality business you worked for and why was your experience so good there? Let them tell you. Like, it's. It's great.You're going to learn something and you don't have to be Mr. Big Ball. It's like, it's great. Be the worst boss they've ever had until you're the best boss they've ever had. You know, learn from them.

So. Right. So that, that's a really good point. So I've been dying to ask this question.If you were speaking to, let's say I'm a business owner and I've got 50 employees and I'm there thinking, I don't see the payoff. You know, like, it's not, it's not a moral decision for me. It's not a moral question for me. It's.I'm running a business and I'm dealing in numbers, I'm dealing in facts. I'm looking at the bottom line and I'm not seeing why I should make this, you know, why I should make this a priority.

What would you say to that person that's so easy? I mean, mental health is something that escalates and de. Escalates all the time, right? It's constantly moving and we all have it.So that guy you're talking about might be sitting there right now being like, hardly matters to me. Business is business.And you might be talking to me, talk to me in five years when you've experienced something, you know, heaven forbid, something really horrible, or you're experiencing a period of low mental health and you're singing a different song.But aside from that, looking at how many people have left your business this year, how's your turnover looking in exit interview data that you probably aren't collecting, but you should be. And if you do look at that data and wonder why, right.When you talk to people about what their experience is working for you and morale is at like a four, you're going to spend more money on recruitment and training over the next five years than you're ever going to spend on something like an effective eap, on support from Kelly's cause, on training your team members.If you treat people well, if you create an environment where they have psychological safety, where they feel like you've given them the tools to manage people safely, they're gonna stay with you forever. It's not rocket science people hate. Have you ever started a new job?It's horrible work where they work and they want to work in good conditions and they want to feel confident that they're able to take care of their teams. If you invest in that, they're gonna stick around.And whatever you're spending on recruitment, which is, I cannot believe how much that costs, you're saving that money. You're putting it in your pocket.

Prevention's far more effective than cure, isn't it?

100 and being realistic about if somebody's having a difficult time and maybe on like the mental health. This is not science based, by the way. This is purely from my own mind.

But it's like science universe, isn't it?

So say somebody's sitting at like a 3 out of 10.

10.

And because you've done mental health first aid training with Kelly's cons or any provider, you know, you just have those skills, you're able to identify that they might be feeling poorly, you know how to talk to them, you've been able to signpost them effectively to the right resources and you've been able to follow up responsibly. Okay? So that person's gonna stay at a 4 out of 10 or 3 out of 10, and then slowly they're gonna start to improve.If you don't know how to identify it or if somebody brings it to you, you don't know what to do, or you do the exact wrong thing or you don't support it or whatever, etc, etc, all of a sudden that person gets to a 7, an 8, a 9, a 10 and they're not showing up for work or they're leaving the job altogether or heaven forbid they're getting really sick or ending up in hospital or worst case scenario, you're losing life, which is like scary but real. And it's about that early intervention. So you ask that guy who's giving you this like, well, it's business is business.And it's like, okay, well what emergency do you want to deal with today?Yeah, do you want to deal with giving people consistent rotors each week so they can attend therapy or they can meet with their psychologist or their psychiatrist.

Or just have dinner with their friends? You know what I mean?

Do you want to deal with that and the labor around that, or do you want to deal with a staff member who's gone or has passed away? Because I guarantee one will cause you less problems than the other. From if you're being like cold hearted about it, you know.

I think also for me that from the business point of view, one, one of the business which is we'll shall stay unnamed, which we brought you into, we had like 85 turnover, right? And then we did two major things, one of which was bringing Kelly's cause in, and bringing Kelly's cause in. We was so important.It's a long term strategy we had with you, the long term strategy that we had with you and that was to not only implement policy change, but also make sure that we have events run for the people, not an hr. Here's a pat on the back in a box of tissues.You know, it's really sad to hear you, you know, but actually what's going to be beneficial for the, for the, the people that are suffering. And I think that is what's what's key here. We did put posters up behind Lou's like that, right?

Advice number one.

And it was so important, like, where can we put them? Where people will go, where they can see it.And one of the things that Achilles Cause was really adamant about was, well, yeah, you can't decide what's going on there if you can't have LGBT or you can't have something about women on there. And it's not coming on the employer. It's just, it was part of the conversation then we're not working together. That's basically the bottom line.And that was, and that was so good because, like, either you're up for it or you're not. And I think that made such a huge difference. And like I said, to go from 85% to under 45% in less than a year.And one of the major contributions to that was, I believe, the project that we did with Kelly's cause. That's real stuff. That is a huge amount of money we've saved on recruitment and training new people up.And instead we can invest that resources into training people, which then means they're gonna stay and they're gonna grow. It's just got this massive also, even.

If they don't, right? So I think this is something I think about a lot is people are like, well, what if we train all these people and within a year they're gone.And I'm like, well, cool. Then you've given somebody life saving skills that they'll bring out into the world with them or to their friend group or to their family.Like, you can't.You could take the person that you think is going to stay with you forever and they've been on a really strong professional development track and you're like, we're going to invest in them and they're going to be here for life and then something happens and, and they get a really great offer somewhere else or their life changes or they just decide that, whatever, there are no guarantees. So withholding effective training.And again, like, you're going to withhold psychological safety from an entire workforce at your business because you're like, what if they get a better job? Or what if they. Yeah, well, they will one day. Like, you know, it's not. That's not the culture anymore, of course.

But also, Tracy and I discussed this on a previous podcast, but the same question was like Rice, well, if, what if they go in a year? What if we invest in them and they go in here? But what if you don't invest in them for a year.

And they stay and wreak havoc, and they stay and manage people badly. Or, you know, not badly, I shouldn't say that, but manage people in a way that's not effective.And so then the fact that they aren't set up to succeed in managing people, there's a trickle. And so instead of one equipped person leaving, you've got a whole team who spent an entire year being like, that's not good.

Awesome. Oh, God. Sorry.

Yeah.

Rachel, Tim said something that struck a chord with me, actually. So I would imagine that a lot of people come to you because they know about the organization and that's great.But obviously not every business knows about the charity. So do you have, like, a bigger plan? Like, what's your kind of, I guess, objective strategy to kind of get your name out there?

So we very, very smartly, a few years ago, hired an incredible head of content named Melanie White. She is a chef. She now works in, like, the social media space.She's does mental health training and thank God, because I haven't a clue how any of that works. So she does a really fantastic job of building up the community around our newsletter, Tasty Bits. You can subscribe via our website.She does a ton on Instagram.She is always reaching out to people that we've trained, that have platforms and reaching the world that way and LinkedIn and all the stuff that I am very happily hands off about.But I think for us, the biggest thing is, like, it's not we want to focus on growth and we'll say yes to opportunities, but the biggest thing every single day when we wake up and go to work is are we getting practical tools into the hands of the people that most need them? People that are on the floor, that are in operation, that are managing people every day or experiencing people every day.That is the point of my job always. The rest of will grow. It will grow because people will have positive experiences.And I think now what we're seeing is we're four years into offering membership and we're seeing operations directors who have used us at a business, who have now moved on to new roles, who are now calling and being like, can't wait to get you in. Where I am now because of what you did, where I was, and seeing that kind of growth, that's what's important.Because everyone in the world can know about Kelly's cause. And if all we're focused on is or not all.But, like, if that's where my focus as managing director is, then I've stopped paying attention to what we're actually doing. And luckily we're a charity. So I don't somebody breathing down my neck being like, profit, profit, profit, profit.Like, you know, we keep our own lights on, we're able to pay our team a fair wage, but after that, it really is just about the mission. Not to sound too like, but. So what's our strategy? Keep. Keep doing our best.Keep doing our best, keep listening to what people need, make sure our skills stay sharp.So as things in the industry are changing, a good example of that is obviously women's safety has become a huge part of the conversation over the past couple of years.That isn't what we're specifically trained in, but we partnered with Sophia Gaznay at CultureBar, who does incredible women's safety training within hospitality. They're also all high up at Hawksmoor in the people team and we partner with them. We fundraise to run two free workshops a year.So we're not like growing to like, also approach, but we're like, hey, this is an issue. We can fundraise to make this happen. Let's partner with somebody who is an expert in this space and let's bring it to the community here.And it's that simple.

In closing then, because I see we've raised some quite interesting and valid points, there's going to be employers or actually even maybe employees that are listening to this. How can they get in touch with you?

So you can email us?Hello, Kellys cause.com you can find us on Instagram, Ellie's cause, you can go to our website, Kelly's Cause.com and you'll find their emails, phone numbers, all of our contact information. I'm also on LinkedIn. I don't really know how to use it, but I do know how to check my messages, so feel free to get in touch with me there.And yeah, tell your friends also, because the more follows we get, the more sharing that happens, according to the wonderful Mel White, content manager. That really helps us. So.

And of course we will put a link on our website for you and a donation page for you on talking hospitality dot com.

Thank you so much, you guys, this has been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you very much. Thank you.