What Makes People Stay in Hospitality Jobs?

Joe McDonnell00:00:00

Young people, especially in work scenarios that they crave above all else, that I'll behave how you treat me. And they want to be treated.They want autonomy, they want to be treated with respect and they want to be given, as you say, the tools and the environment within which to succeed.

John Herity00:00:16

We treat them, although they're 16, 17, like adults. They're out in the workplace. We'll treat them like adults. We'll treat them fairly and with respect. Now, we understand that people make mistakes.If you don't make mistakes, you don't learn from that. Please and thank you and good morning, then. Good night. Course nothing.

Joe McDonnell00:00:34

There's a lot of good managers and bad managers and good leaders and bad leaders out there. And the good thing about having bad managers is you can learn what not to do from them.

Timothy R Andrews00:00:41

There's somebody who influences our hospitality career so that we kind of, you know, there's somebody who impacts us in such a way that we then follow or certain things that they then do.

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The voices, you know, Timothy, Tracy and Joe on the show, from front of house to chefs on the line, every voice can shape the future each time. Every voice can.

Joe McDonnell00:01:28

All right, welcome. Today we've got a really special guest. This is John Heritage from Caledonian Club. Welcome, John.

John Herity00:01:35

Thanks very much, Joe.

Joe McDonnell00:01:36

Thanks, Tim. Hello. And of course, of course we've got Tim R Andrews, the founder of Talking Hospitality.

Timothy R Andrews00:01:42

Hello.

Joe McDonnell00:01:42

Hello, John. Thanks for being on today. Tell us a little bit about your background in hospitality.

John Herity00:01:48

I started officially in 1987 when I was in college.Then I moved to London in 1991 and to work in the Caledonian Club as a trainee manager and then I left there, went to temping for about six months just to see how other places worked.I was in Buckingham palace, Windsor Castle, St James's palace as a butler, working there and various other companies and then ended up in PwC and embankment for seven years.Get in there as a butler, finishing up as the restaurant manager and then get made redundant, but get then taken on by the same company to go and work in ing. The bank took over Bearings after it collapsed and then from there went to another private bank, Close Brothers.Stayed there for about seven years before moving back into contract catering in Credit Suisse.Stayed there for a couple of years and then moved to Barclays bank as the hospitality manager before leaving there and going to State street as a deputy gm and then get asked to come back to the Caledonian club in 2016 as the FMB manager. I didn't get me redundant because of COVID and then asked to come Back there again to 2021 as the operations manager.So I must have been doing something right or something wrong, I don't know. And that's been me being back there now nearly three years. Yeah.

Timothy R Andrews00:03:07

I can't believe that it's gone so fast.

John Herity00:03:09

I know in the last 33 years, I've been there about 10 and a half years, so I'm one of the newbies. And we've got staff there that have been in there 32, 33 years.

Joe McDonnell00:03:20

Wow.

John Herity00:03:20

So it's a good place to work.

Joe McDonnell00:03:22

Yeah, I guess there's not many venues that can. That can say that in the country, can they?

John Herity00:03:26

No, no. As I said, now we've got a chef that's been in there 32 years. The club secretary has been in there. Him and I started training managers together.We were one year apart and Lar's not left there, so that's 32 years. We've got chefs that have been in there 32 years, a waiter that's been in there 32 years. But you've got a whole host of staff 20 years plus.So this is a long service in the one place which makes the environment for members and guests coming in. It's not a hotel. We don't wear name badges. We get to know the members, they get to know us.So it has like a family and I know a lot of places see it, but this is genuine. They take interest in you, you take interest in them.You meet the grandchildren and stuff like that, they bring them up and go, this is John, he's this that. Anything you need, just talk to him. You get into the dining room or the bar and wait to feel welcome as they walk in through the doors of the club.So it is genuinely a family feel to it. And that's when the club started in 1891. That was the whole ethos of it, that it was a home from home. And that's still the case today, 140 years on.

Joe McDonnell00:04:39

When we think about hospitality, I think typically people's minds will go to bars, pubs, restaurants, cafes, hotels. Clubland is probably. It's a little bit more niche in terms of the hospitality space.How were things when you first started in that side of the industry? How do you think it's changed?

John Herity00:04:58

Oh, it's changed dramatically. In 1991, the Caledonia Club, no female members were allowed. You couldn't walk.Women couldn't walk across the threshold of the bar because they weren't full time members. I think we changed that in about 2004. So for the last 20 years. Women are on a level playing field with the men.I know some clubs haven't quite caught up yet, but the same token, there are all women's clubs where men aren't allowed, which isn't really spoken about, but definitely back then it was very much male dominated and women were effectively now second class citizens if you like. But thankfully that's changed. I'll take a woman and a man's money. I don't care. Give her money.

Joe McDonnell00:05:47

Capitalism. Equality right there.

John Herity00:05:50

It keeps me their job.

Joe McDonnell00:05:51

Yeah, yeah, sure. What's your ratio of male members to female members off the top of your head?

John Herity00:06:02

We get roughly 1400 members and there's a good 10, 12 to 15% ladies. Okay, okay, so a good 150, 170.

Joe McDonnell00:06:12

It's a decent number. I mean, so. So what, other than the gender inequality or segregation, what else do you feel has been sort of a big change in recent years?

John Herity00:06:21

We've got a lot of younger members. So from that again, there's a good 150, 200 younger members.So it's under 35s, which can be any walk of life now, as long as the membership for that is about 5, 600 pounds for five years from 18 to 25. So as soon as you have 18, you could potentially become a member and then it goes up in increments.So you don't need to be earning a fortune to become a member as long as you meet the criteria which is predominantly Scottish or have an empathy or a link to Scotland.And if you were educated in Scotland or your parents were, or business interests, as long as you've got a feeling for Scotland, that's what it's what it is. Now there's a lot of. That's the whole thing about a club. You have to have a bond with it somewhere along the line.You can't just come in because you want to get vetted. You're going through the whole process, but you need to have a link with Scotland, which helps.

Joe McDonnell00:07:18

Could I get in just because of my surname, you think?

John Herity00:07:20

Have you had some iron brewing watch tag up?

Joe McDonnell00:07:23

Sure have.

John Herity00:07:24

That's a tenuous link,.

Timothy R Andrews00:07:27

John. Don't ask them to an accent though, it's embarrassing. So his target impression drew one podcast.

Joe McDonnell00:07:34

Without me doing an accent.

Timothy R Andrews00:07:36

Yes, well, yeah.

John Herity00:07:39

And that specific line has got me a lot of alcohol in my time from ladies from America and Australia. That when they used to say, can you say that specific line? I said, yes, it cost you a pint. So I get a lot of drink because of that in the 90s.

Timothy R Andrews00:07:54

Funny you can remember them, but yeah,.

John Herity00:07:56

When I'd hair,.

Timothy R Andrews00:07:59

The Caledonian Club is. I've been there, it's beautiful, beautiful venue.What I've noticed about the club compared to some of the other clubs is it's much more open to getting involved in the community, like the wider community. Like you've had schools come in, you give them tours, you educate them.Various projects that I've been involved in, you're very keen to get involved in as well. How much, how important do you think that's been for the club to open up to the wider community?

John Herity00:08:26

I think that the whole mystery between private members clubs is that it's all boys, it's now predominantly white, it's predominantly no middle class or rich people. It's not that ours isn't. Ours is open to anyone that, as I said, can afford that.And it's not that my golf membership is more than the membership for the club and I just go to a club around the corner, so it's not stupidly expensive.Now we've got a buy in but for us to help the locals, we do a lot that I just said with the schools and I've got Westminster College students coming around next Monday is to show them what a private members club is. Now we've got 39 bedrooms, so it is like an essence, a boutique hotel. But you're not just a number.Now when you get any hotel, no, each one's different but when I've been in hotels it's just thank you very much and away you go. That's not the way we treat our members or guests. As I said, we get to know them but open up to wider community.But the 16 year olds, 17 year olds that come in, we offer them jobs whether they've get a hospitality training or not. When we do the tours, I say, look, when you're 16, you'll beat your National Insurance number. Give me a call if you want weekend workout.You want to do this, we will train you. So, so they're getting paid £13 an hour rather than the what they should be for the government dictates of 5, 6, 7 pounds.So they're getting paid a decent wage and they're getting taught life skills now and mixing with people that will help them go get guys that have been coming back for three, four years because they're at university. So it gives them money to save up to take out and earn a decent wage whilst they're studying.So that, that helps the profile of the club because they see Young people coming through. It's just 60, 70 year old waiters are now staff.We've got 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 year olds and even the 20 year old, some of them have been there for four or five years so it's a good groan for them. And a few boys have been taken on full time from being now 16 year olds going in. So it's not just a weekend job, it's not just a part time gig.If you're serious and want to know and we'll get space for you, then we'll take you on field day.

Timothy R Andrews00:10:35

I think that's a really good point about. Because a lot of the clubs are not doing so well, are they, because of that reputation.So how have you, how have you managed to attract a younger audience then?

John Herity00:10:50

My charming personality.

Timothy R Andrews00:10:55

And you can't replicate that?

John Herity00:10:57

No, I can't buy that, no. As I said, we're giving them a decent wage.They're fed when they're there, they're not treated like slaves, they're not across air, they're not micromanaging. You've been in the toilet two minutes for deducting you. We treat them, although they're 16, 17, like adults, they're out in the workplace.We'll treat them like adults, we'll treat them fairly and with respect now. And we understand that people make mistakes. If you don't make mistakes, you don't learn from that. Nobody shouted that.We're not a workplace where if you make a mistake or you need to pay for that, you people break glasses now, trays fall, food gets full. It's one of these things, part and parcel of life. But we're not going to stand in berate though because it's unfair. They're learning.I don't know everything. Yes, I've been in this industry a long time.So I say I went, look, I make mistakes but my job is to make, train you to limit the amount of mistakes that you're making, which makes you better because we all make mistakes,.

Joe McDonnell00:11:50

Young people, especially in work scenarios that they crave above all else, that being treat, you know, I'll behave how you treat me.And they want to be treated, they want autonomy, they want to be treated with respect and they want to be given, as you say, the tools and the environment within which to succeed. Not to be told the minute they put a foot wrong, you've done something wrong. Like.Yeah, it's the, it's the thing that I think we get, we get wrong with training quite often. It's like the Example of a kid learning to walk is like when the first. When the kid takes his first step or tries to stand up and then falls over.You know, as parents, you don't go, no, you shouldn't have fallen over. Get back up again.You know, the minute they start to know you go, oh, my God, you're kind of standing up and, oh, you'd crawl it, you know, every step of the way, we encourage. But then all of a sudden you're in a work environment and the response is, well, you didn't. You didn't walk fast. You didn't go fast enough.Look at them, they're walking faster than you. It's like we don't change that much. The way we would want to learn.The environments within which we develop and we grow, you know, they're ones within which we're encouraged and, you know, we're treated with respect. I think it's really cool.

John Herity00:12:53

Yeah, you have to. Especially nowadays with a workplace change in the younger generations. They wouldn't work for you if you shout ball.Thankfully, I've been very lucky in my career that I've never had to work in a place like that because I wouldn't put up at the front house, back house. Now, I've never been into that whole situation. I'm a qualified chef, so I know the back of house as well.So there's no way that I would let chefs shout at my staff. No. If I was there, it's just not happening. Yeah.

Timothy R Andrews00:13:24

So I always think that in our life, like there's somebody who influences our hospitality career so that we kind of, you know, there's somebody who impacts us in such a way that we then follow or certain things that they then do. So for example, you invest in. In young people, you're very, you know, you very into.Whenever I've spoken to about training, you'll be always been engaged about that. Joe is as well. Joe's all about building people up and stuff like that. Of course, you both know I'm all about that. So in terms of.So I think everyone talks about being a great teacher. Right. But I think we all have that person in hospitality that just is that person that we build ourselves on.Do you have somebody like that, John, that you perhaps want to give a shout out to?

John Herity00:14:06

It's quite strange. I sort of fell into hospitality because of my circumstances in Glasgow with my family. So my gran was a cook. She.She cooked for Sean Connery at the golf club. She didn't know who he was because he was baldy. We're in the Bond movies, he had hair. So I just think it's that the whole for me is.It's helping people. I've not mentored as such, but I look like a football player, if you like.I look at various managers I worked with and try to take traits away from them. Now my first restaurant manager, Mario Brasilini, is probably not alive anymore because this was 35 years ago now.He used to shave and then splash his face with vodka. I certainly don't do that. Yeah, I know, wow. Mad Italian. But it's guys like that you look at.He's came from a different country and he's learned his trade with brilliant chefs back in Glasgow then and him, it was just about going right, he's doing this right.When my friends from college went to do a bank rating, he chose me to get the dining room or the restaurant where I learned how to do silver service Flomby State Diane steak Aquife. I used to women saying to him, look, what's that boy doing in here? He should be in his bed, it's past 10 o'. Clock. Because I looked that young.But just that whole thing that he took his time to teach me how to make steak Dianes and steakhouse when I was 18, well, my mates were in banqueting, banging out events for 120, 140. But that's what that whole getting things done properly, that's what's installed in me. If you do it once, do it properly.If a knife straight, it takes the same amount of time to put a knife straight as off center or squint. Just do it right once. If it takes a wee bit longer.The more you do it, the more you do it, the more, the quicker you get as you just said there, the youngsters I show them and nowadays it's like take a photograph of the setup. I used to draw the setups for everything before mobile phones, so that I knew.But it was now and then I still say to them, like, this is what we're doing and show them the setups from start to the end. And that's not just for the youngsters, that's for anyone coming in.I can't tell you you're doing something wrong if I don't show you how you're going to do it right. So it's me physically showing them rather than relying on anyone else to do it because they can't say, oh, I don't know, I've shown you.So if you're not doing it right, why not? What you not Getting or I'm left handed, but the knife was down the right hand side yesterday. Why have you switched? Oh, but I'm right handed.But the majority of all learn to explain the reasons why. Knives on that side, fox on that side. That's there. It's the explanation behind it as well.But as I said, I pick up traits from the managers and people that I work with that I think are good or not so good and try and avoid them.

Joe McDonnell00:16:53

So you can definitely learn as you can. Sadly, I mean, there's a lot of good managers and bad managers and good leaders and bad leaders out there. And you can learn.The good thing about having bad managers is you can learn what not to do from them, can't you? There's always a positive to be taken, all right, you might have to fight tooth and nail for it. And we would probably say not worth the cost.But that is the silver lining. When you have someone tell you like, I'll never do that. I'll never make, I'll never speak to somebody like that.I'll never make somebody feel the way that, you know, they've made me feel or I've seen them make other people feel. You can learn a lot, can't you?

Timothy R Andrews00:17:24

A built business out of a really bad manager. And I had 16 years out of it. So it's just the whole thing.

John Herity00:17:32

I walk in every morning and I say hello and every night I say goodbye. I've had managers that I worked with that walk by you and ignore you when you say good morning or good afternoon. And it's just blank.Look at, why am I busting the gut for them when you can't just say, no matter what's happening, pleasing, thank you and good morning, good night cost nothing. Manners cost nothing. And that's the way managers need to think about, especially nowadays, about people's feelings and thoughts.And sadly, a lot of people don't.

Joe McDonnell00:18:04

I mean, on the subject of mentors is, I think, mentorship.My theory on it is it's either it's a mentor is someone who shows you something about yourself, who recognizes something and nurtures it in you, or it's someone who shows you something about the world and where you can go and where you can take those skills.For me, it's like that's, I think, what it boils down to, certainly how I think about it, both when I'm being mentored and when I mentor other people.And John, I just, you know, you've, you've mentioned it a lot in terms of nurturing the teams coming through and the people that you work with and the standards that you hold. Sounds like you hold your team to as well. And. And I just wondered if you could give us your definition of what mentoring is.

John Herity00:18:43

Well, exactly. You're saying I actually became an institute hospitality mentor again. Is nurturing and helping.We don't all know the answers, but a mentor isn't meant to tell you the answers. It's for you to find the answers. It's helping them get to the answers. Yeah, answers.Because if I give you what work have you done to get there, what I can help you, guide you there so that it's your thoughts, your feelings and if you do that for yourself, you will be better rather than me just handing in a plate. This is the answer. That's not what mentoring is.I will guide you to it, but you have to have the thought and feeling behind it and when you do that, you will feel better. Achievement because it's your thoughts and your ideas rather than somebody handing it to you that can help listen and put you in the right direction.

Joe McDonnell00:19:32

I love that. That's great.

Timothy R Andrews00:19:37

If someone you want to talk to you maybe about mentoring or even the club, what's the best way for them to get hold of you? You can find John's details on the link below@talkinghospitality.com John, thank you very much for your time today.

John Herity00:19:49

Thank you very much, Tim.

Timothy R Andrews00:19:50

Thank you very much. Good day boys and you take care. Enjoy the football.

Theme Tune performed by Shape The Future00:20:03

Talking, hospitality, the voices, you know.