Would You Know How to Support a Trans Colleague?

Tracey Rashid00:00:00

Gender. Trans. These are words that seem to elicit reactions and opinions in most people these days and yet many of us are not very well informed about the subject.Because of that, we are delighted to be speaking with the amazing Che Young, gender diversity and inclusion trainer to the show in order to help better inform us and understand what this all means.

Intro00:00:22

Talking Hospitality theme tune

Timothy R Andrews00:00:28

A report in 2022 revealed that 1:5 workers in the restaurant industry identify as LGBQTI plus, but they suffer significantly higher instances of sexual harassment, homophobia and transphobia than their non LGBTQ peers. Over 80% of those interviewed said they had experienced harassment in some form.A big thank you to our sponsors, the Brighton Box Gallery, an LGBTQ owned, award winning art gallery in the heart of Brighton, which is.Whatever your preferred style of art, the Brighton Gallery is delighted to be able to offer a wide range of unique and local artists at the brightonbox.com

Tracey Rashid00:01:12

Welcome to another episode of Talking Hospitality. It's season three with host Timothy R. Andrews and me co host Tracey Rashid.

Timothy R Andrews00:01:21

Unfortunately, due to professional commitments, Sarah is unable to be with us today. But don't worry Sarah fans, she'll be back as soon as she can and send her love and and thanks Tracey for stepping in at such short notice.

Tracey Rashid00:01:32

You're so welcome. I'm a little bit scared. I know how good Sarah is, so I hope that I can feel her boots just as well.

Timothy R Andrews00:01:40

I'm sure you'll be great.

Tracey Rashid00:01:42

Thank you, thank you. I'll do my best. I'll do her proud.

Timothy R Andrews00:01:48

The world is changing. It always does. Things are one way and then they're not anymore. Many complex issues have come to the table over the years.Religion, race and most recently sexuality. And now it's the turn of gender. These are the words of today's guest gender activist and inclusion teacher, Shay Barnes.

Tracey Rashid00:02:11

Welcome Che.

Che Young00:02:12

Thank you so much for having me.

Tracey Rashid00:02:14

We're excited to have you, we really are.

Che Young00:02:16

Thank you. I'm excited to be here. I'm interested to know what you want to know.

Timothy R Andrews00:02:22

Be very, very interesting I think, and very educational. It's a very hot topic at the moment and definitely can't wait to dive in. So shall we?

Che Young00:02:30

Yes. Right, let's do it.

Intro00:02:33

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Tracey Rashid00:03:06

Che on your website, www.viewfromadove.co.uk you state that gender can seem too complicated nowadays and it's often confused with sexual orientation. Could you explain what you mean by that?

Che Young00:03:21

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think it's. It's somewhere I often start because I think a lot of people get confused.I mean, I think, you know, the LGBTQ+ acronym that keeps growing a little.It does include both people who are different or different from the norms from a sexual orientation perspective, but also then people who differ from a gender perspective.And I think it's caused a bit of confusion because people think they're the same thing or that if somebody is identifying differently from a gender perspective, that that says something about their sexual orientation and it doesn't. So they're two totally separate things. And I almost kind of.I say sometimes it's almost like if you're on a desert island, you could kind of have your gender and it kind of. That would you. You could still have a gender on a desert island with no other human beings.Sexual orientation comes into it when the boat arrives with other people. So gender is something that is very much individual to us and doesn't involve anybody else at all. With it being complicated, I think.I don't know, it seems like there has been a bit of an explosion of different terms. And I think the last I heard it was something like 70 plus different labels that people are aware of. But it's not that complicated, actually.It really isn't. If we distill it down a bit like anything, we can have a main category and then subcategories.And if you like some of those 70 labels, they're just subcategories. And so really the key thing is to understand what the main categories are.And when we understand that it's nowhere near as complicated as it might initially seem.

Tracey Rashid00:04:54

Oh, I like that. And obviously when we have someone amazing like yourself, who's so knowledgeable, you can break it down in a way that's very understandable.

Che Young00:05:02

Exactly that. And that's my background, actually. My background is as a corporate trainer.So for 20 years I worked in the corporate world, kind of delivering training to resellers, clients, all sorts of different people. And I love it, actually. It's what I love.Taking a really complex topic and distilling it down to the basic principles and Then building people's knowledge up from scratch. That's, that's kind of my, my forte and my speciality. So. And I love doing it for gender.

Tracey Rashid00:05:27

Great. And it shows as well, which I love.

Timothy R Andrews00:05:30

It's really interesting where you've put that because the resistance that people have over this is because they're seeing so many different labels and definitions. But actually what you're saying, it's not how it's being presented. It's not forefront.It's kind of like a breakdown and it's more of the subtleties for people and the nuances. And I've already learned something and we, in three weeks.

Tracey Rashid00:05:53

I think we tend to do that, don't we, as people? When you don't understand something, you just overcomplicate it rather than just actually stepping back and thinking what does this actually mean?Yeah, we just tend to overcomplicate it for no reason.

Che Young00:06:06

I think when something seems complicated as well, it almost feels impenetrable. And because it feels impenetrable, people just step back from it.And so really that does feel like it's my mission in the world at the moment is to help people understand. Understand. It really isn't complicated. It's really, it's not rocket science or brain surgery. It's nothing like that.And it is just really about taking, like with any training, you have to start at the beginning and you know, if you start at the end, nobody gets it. You have to take things in the right sequence, in the right way.And I have what I call a four step program that takes people from awareness, through education to understanding and finally to acceptance.Because I believe it's through understanding that we really get to a point where we can accept people if we don't understand, it can be really hard to accept. So yes, education and understanding that are vital.

Tracey Rashid00:06:54

And is that what you also meant when you said it's like that we need to keep re examining old beliefs? It's that kind of movement and progression.

Che Young00:07:03

Yeah.So I think it's really interesting and I think one of the biggest objections that I get from people or that people say is it's like, well, it's clearly obvious there are just men and women. It's either XX or X Y, you know, because that's what we were all taught, wasn't it?That in the womb a baby's developing and it either goes down the XX kind of like slide or it goes down the XY slide and arrives at baby boy or baby girl?And that's what, that's what We've been told, and we've been told that that then results in, you know, boys have got high levels of testosterone and low levels of estradiol, or the female hormones as they've been labeled, and that girls have the opposite. They have low testosterone and high estradiol. But it's a major oversimplification. It's.Even though it feels like gender is too complicated, the problem is that what we were taught was far too simplistic. So, I mean, for example, I mean, this is something most people aren't aware of. There are actually 10 different chromosomal profiles.So it's not just xx and xy. There's xxx, there's xyy, there's just x, there's xo, there's xy, dsd, there's, you know, there's a whole bunch of different chromosomal profiles.And yeah, so this, this pink and blue kind of black and white binary story that we were told in school actually was just an oversimplification.

Timothy R Andrews00:08:18

The way you present it makes us think about how I could be careful what I say these days, but, like how in the past everybody believed the world was flat, then the science showed that it was different, that it wasn't. And there are still. People believe the world is flat. And it feels like that's how you're presenting it, that this is how it was.This is based on the beliefs that we had in those times. And even though it wasn't that long ago, but actually we're more educated now and we're learning more stuff.Like when somebody said, world is round the resist, there's a resistance to it unraveling, all of that. It's really, really fascinating.

Che Young00:08:52

What's really interesting though, Tim, and this is, this is even more interesting in a way, is when we go back in human history, we find that this binary gender thing was, was not actually the truth of it. And so when we go back in the archaeological records, there were way less differences between men and women.And it was actually something that was introduced. And so I don't know whether either of you watched the, the Netflix series Ancient Apocalypse, but that's fascinating.And it talks about how kind of the worst back like 10,000 years bc that could actually build big things. And they did actually have quite advanced thinking.And back then, it's clearly, it's very clear from the archaeological record that we were what they call gender blind. We didn't see gender. So, like, we died for the same reasons. We ate the same food. We were actually about the same Height.You know, there was this kind of idea that we were two different things was something that came in much later. And it's often pinned on the agricultural revolution.So it's often pinned on that, as in we suddenly started owning property and land, and then we would join with, you know, a man and a woman would pair to create children to, like, essentially inherit the land. And that's why it was done.

Speaker E00:10:02

You will fail. So what? Everybody does. But your gym, your watch, your yoga pants, they pretend you won't.So when you miss a day, eat the pancakes, give up on a workout, you failed. Seriously, what the hell? We're Bodi. We've been a part of that, too, but not anymore. At Bodi, we're rejecting perfection and embracing reality.Not in a Pizza Monday kind of way, in a loving your whole life kind of way, in a this workout is fun and it's okay if I take a week off kind of way, in an I'm eating healthy and it's okay if I indulge kind of way, in a I like myself no matter what kind of way. Yeah, you will fail. We all will. But we're not going to let that be the end. You see that? We're already making progress, so let's keep going.We are BODI. Start your free trial@bodi.com. that's b o d I dot com.

Che Young00:11:04

But actually more recent things are pointing to the fact that actually it started when they started taking censuses. So when they started, like, kind of trying to essentially keep records of the population, they had to put us into categories.Like, how many of these have you got? And how many of those have you got?They decided that men were the ones that would go out and fight and women were the ones that would stay at home and look after children and tend the half. But prior to that, it wasn't like that.It's really interesting how when we look at ancient texts, like even like ancient Jewish religion, the ancient Kabbalah and the Talmud, they refer to trans people, they refer to intersex people. And there are still cultures all around the world that recognize more than two genders.And so actually this whole idea that it's pink or blue or men and women, and that's. It was introduced. It's actually we kind of threw out truth a while ago. We took on this new concept and now we're coming back to truth.We're refinding a truth that was actually there all along. And yes, science is helping with that. Tim, you're absolutely right. Because at the forefront of science.Now they're saying essentially that neither sex nor gender are binary. They're both a spectrum.

Timothy R Andrews00:12:11

Why we get our heads around that, because you yourself have had quite an interesting journey, some of which you've shared on your LinkedIn. I mean, your LinkedIn, by the way, if anybody's listening and haven't checked out Shay's LinkedIn, you should.There's some really amazing posts you share with us. How you became an activist and why gender matters so much to you.

Che Young00:12:30

Yeah, totally. I was a good Christian girl, I suppose, growing up in a. In a rural community. Even think to question it at all, really.Then I became head girl of a convent school. It was an old girls school. It was all just girls, girls, girls, girls. And then we hit 15 and suddenly my friends started being interested in boys.And it didn't really make a lot of sense to me. I didn't really get it. I was still quite interested in my studies, getting like, good grades.If I look back at photographs now, I can see the awkwardness. And I kind of like. I have a whole load of compassion for little me who. I tried to wear makeup, I got it very wrong.I tried to do my hair, I got it very wrong. I tried to wear the right clothes, I got it very wrong. And generally looked a bit of.

Tracey Rashid00:13:10

A.

Che Young00:13:10

Bit of a mess most of the time. But it was only. It was decided to leave home, I suppose.You know, we grow up with our parents, they teach us what they know, we live in that environment, we. We think it's the way the world is. Then we step out into the world.And once I got to university, I started to realize that there were options and things could be different. Very quickly I started to realize my own bisexuality. And so that was a.That was a great time for me to kind of like realize that there was more to life than what I thought. And it kind of made some sense of some stuff that had been a bit weird for me when I was. When I was younger.And then gradually it's as I've gone out in the world, I suppose I've kind of looked at the. And I've started questioning this concept of men and women and if nothing else, the disparities between men and women. Right.You know, kind of like how we're treated so totally differently.Back in 2017, a friend of mine put a post up on the Internet and essentially they've been in a supermarket and they had seen two magazines next to each other. One was Girl's Life and one was Boys Life. And it still shocks me today.So the girls Life magazine was all about how to wake up pretty, how to get your first boyfriend, kind of like, you know, falling out with your friends, you know, kind of like how to do your hair in a hundred different ways or whatever it might be. Pictures of girls all over the front looking very pretty and very done and very slathered in makeup.And then the boys Life magazine was all about, what do you want to do with your life? Do you want to be an astronaut? Do you want to be a boy scout? Like, look at scouting, look at computing, look at this, that, the other.And so it was so obvious. It's. It's kind of like almost like a mass conditioning. You know. Boys, you need to get a career, you need to work, you need to provide for a family.Girls, you need to look pretty. You need to wake up looking pretty. You need to wear your hair in a million different ways to look pretty.And it just felt so wrong to me on such a deep level. So I reposted it and kind of said, this is shocking. You know, it's 2017. Like, surely we've got to get over this stuff already. And I.I fell out with a really good friend of mine who came back with the argument, it's just XX and xy. This is the way we are. Boys and girls are biologically different.Magazine retailers wouldn't be selling magazines like this if the people weren't wanting to read them. And so I kind of reflected on that for a long time and I thought, yeah, okay, it's fair enough.There are some girls who really want that magazine, and there are some boys that really want that magazine. But there are actually some girls that would further read the boys magazine and some boys that would prefer to read the girls magazine.So why are we genderizing it? Why can't we have teens magazine about careers, Teens magazine about looking good, you know, why. Why does it have to be gendered at all?And I was kind of asking questions about what about those people that don't feel, you know, pink or bl. Blue that are in the middle? You know, what about those people? Where's the magazine for them?And, yeah, it got very shouted down by my friend who just told me it was nonsense and I should just get over myself. And I think it planted a seed that's just grown.I started researching it all, and the more I researched, the more I found about different cultures, examples from nature showing that gender isn't binary and that actually we really are in this society forcing people into pink and blue. And not really allowing for anything other than that.

Timothy R Andrews00:16:18

For our listeners who may be completely new to this subject, what do you mean when you say XX and X?

Che Young00:16:24

Y in the main, when a child or when a baby is developing in the womb, generally their chromosomal profiles will go one of two ways. For girls, it's generally xx. It's kind of like they have two chromosomes that join together and one's an X, the other's an X. X, X.With boys, it's actually the xy. So the X and the Y join together and then they become a boy. But, yeah, that is only telling, kind of like a very small part of the story.And that's, that's probably true, I would say for about 90% of the population, it's as straight is that, that we have xx, we have xy, they then result in the hormone production. So if you've got xx, you will develop more estradiol. If you've got xy, you will develop more testosterone.Those hormones in turn result in our genitalia. So high testosterone results in the penis and testes and high estradiol results in a womb and ovaries.Yeah, it is just, it's, it's not that straightforward. So when I talk about things like xxx, in that 10% gap in the middle, there are people whose chromosomal profiles just don't follow those two paths.And there are actually a whole bunch of other paths that development in the womb can take that we're just not even taught about, you know, and so when I was pregnant with my child, I was told that it was going to be a boy or a girl. I was expecting a boy or a girl. It never dawned on me that I could have anything other than the boy or a girl.I've had boys, Both of my children are boys.You know, I can't for the life of me understand why nobody sat me down and said, by the way, are you aware that between 1 in 50 and 1 in 500 people are born not male or female, so they're born something in between. So in the UK last year, with something like 860, 000 people born, 17, 000 of them were not male or female.I mean, that's 47 people a day and were born in the UK last year, not male or female. It's a lot more than we think. And, and the, you know, it's called intersex, so it's kind of the name given for these people.So essentially we have males, we have females and we have intersex. People. And there's a lot. But, yeah, we're not told. We're not taught about them.And when we look at other cultures across the world, I mean, there's one culture I absolutely adore in Sulawesi and the Bugis people, and they recognize three sexes, so male, female, and intersex. And then they recognize five genders. And we haven't quite got into that bit of the conversation.But, yeah, in the five genders, they recognize people born male who identify as a man, people born female who identify as a woman, people who fall in the middle whether they be born into sex or not. But it's how they feel. When we get into gender, it's more about how they feel.But they also recognize people born male who are women and people who are born female who are men. And to my mind, this actually is a much more accurate model and represents, like, how actually the human species is when it comes to sex and gender.And it's actually totally backed up by science. All the science is there to show that this is true.And even when we get into the trans kind of conversation, you know, people who are wanting to swap arguably from one binary gender to the other binary gender, and I call this trans binary. And it's one of the specific kind of buckets, if you like, that we put some of the other terms in. So trans binary people.There has been some science, some absolutely brilliant science that has shown that somebody born male who feels female or feels like a woman, actually their brain is a female brain. And same for men who are born who, you know, the other way around.So people who are born female who actually feel like a man, they actually have a male brain. So the patterning in their brain is more the way that the other gender's brain would work.

Speaker E00:19:59

You will fail. So what? Everybody does. But your gym, your watch, your yoga pants, they pretend you won't. So when you miss a day, eat the pancakes.Give up on a workout. You failed. Seriously? What the hell? We're body. We've been a part of that too, but not anymore.At Bodi, we're rejecting perfection and embracing reality. Not in a Pizza Monday kind of way. In a loving your whole life kind of way. In a this workout is fun and it's okay if I take a week off kind of way.In an I'm eating healthy and it's okay if I indulge kind of way. In a I like myself no matter what kind of way. Yeah, you will fail. We all will. But we're not gonna let that be the end.See, that we're already making progress. So let's keep going. We are. Bodi. Start your free trial@bodi.com that's b o d I dot com.

Timothy R Andrews00:21:01

As Tracey said, this is a huge area being explored, but because we obviously have a lot of hospitality people, a lot of employers are listening in also, you know, hospitality by its very nature is very diverse in terms of the people it employ. Do you have any advice for employers or even employees when working with people who do not necessarily fall into the heteronormative?

Che Young00:21:24

One of the things would be to not expect those LGBTQ colleagues or employees to educate you.And that's actually quite an important thing, because I think sometimes what happens is when an employer or a colleague finds out that the other person is lgbtq plus, they think it's okay to kind of like, ask a million questions. So what does that mean for you? And how is that, and how does that work and how does this work and how does the other work?And you having an operation or you. And it gets. It gets very personal very quickly. And I think the point is it's not their job to educate you. It's your job to educate yourself.You know, and so my advice to employers would be to educate themselves to get themselves informed, to get to a point where they can understand it. So instead of saying, oh, this stuff's too complicated.

Che Young00:22:10

It isn't just actually take forwards. Yeah, yeah, take a step forwards to actually educating yourself, and it will change everything to get yourself informed, but also to get the.Your employees, your other employees informed again.So that kind of like, if somebody comes into the organization that's lgbtq, that, again, those other colleagues don't feel like they need to ask questions.So as an employer, inform yourself, educate yourself, and then also ensure that you inform and educate those staff members that maybe don't understand it. It.

Tracey Rashid00:22:41

So if someone causes a fence inadvertently, like, by misgendering or misusing pronouns, what's the. The best way to fix that situation?

Che Young00:22:49

A really great question, actually. Yeah. I mean, I think that the first thing is to simply make a very quick apology and then really to just move on.Because actually, what sometimes happens is people then make it about themselves. And so it can be like, oh, I'm really sorry for misgendering you. The thing is, it's so difficult for me. I don't understand any of this. And it can.It can go on to a massive.And then the person who's just been offended and been misgendered or whatever it might then has to listen to somebody's problems about, you know, how it's really difficult for them. And it's. It's really. It's about apologizing quickly and moving on and not making it about you.The other thing is that if somebody actually points out to you that you've just misgendered them or that you've used the wrong pronoun again, it can actually be quite good to thank them and say, oh, thanks for letting me know. Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do better in future.And again, move on without the defensiveness, the kind of long explanations as to why it's hard for you to get your head around, et cetera, et cetera. Apologize quickly.

Timothy R Andrews00:23:44

And I think you've got to also put in context there's so much conversation going on and it's moving so fast that this can happen and it's realizing that this has happened, but then what you do about it. So I think that's really, really good advice.

Che Young00:23:56

Thank you.

Tracey Rashid00:23:56

Wow. I mean, this has been hugely fascinating.I've learned so much in this time and it's such a shame that we only have half an hour to spend with you because I'm sure there's so much more to uncover.

Che Young00:24:07

Put the cuppa down. Question time.

Tracey Rashid00:24:15

I believe it's quick fire round.

Timothy R Andrews00:24:17

It is.

Tracey Rashid00:24:17

Okay, so the rules of the game are as follows. You'll be asked a series of questions and you must find the first word that pops into your head and let us know what it is.

Che Young00:24:28

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Tracey Rashid00:24:30

Are you ready?

Che Young00:24:31

I think so.

Tracey Rashid00:24:39

What did you eat for breakfast?

Che Young00:24:40

Mango. Father. Is your hair blonde but dyed?

Tracey Rashid00:24:45

Cherry Bakewell or fondant Fancy?

Che Young00:24:47

Fondant.

Timothy R Andrews00:24:48

Fancy sandals with socks or shell suits?

Che Young00:24:53

I'm gonna have to go. Shell suit.

Tracey Rashid00:24:55

Most use supermarkets.

Che Young00:24:56

Tesco.

Timothy R Andrews00:24:57

In your group of friends, what role do you play?

Che Young00:24:59

I'm probably the optimist. The eternal optimist. Slightly annoying. Eternal optimist.

Tracey Rashid00:25:04

What's your best habits?

Che Young00:25:05

Oh, probably meditating.

Timothy R Andrews00:25:07

What is something you can never seem to finish a book.

Tracey Rashid00:25:10

If you had to name, what would you change it to?

Che Young00:25:13

Ah, that's because I have arguably changed it quite recently to shape.

Timothy R Andrews00:25:16

What's your go to dance move?

Che Young00:25:18

Head banging.

Tracey Rashid00:25:19

What's your favorite body part?

Che Young00:25:21

My eyes.

Timothy R Andrews00:25:22

Describe your style in one word.

Che Young00:25:25

Eclectic.

Tracey Rashid00:25:26

What is your favorite type of stationery?

Che Young00:25:28

Stapler.

Timothy R Andrews00:25:30

These are very in depth questions. Say a word in Spanish.

Che Young00:25:34

Hola.

Tracey Rashid00:25:36

What is not a big deal to most people, but it's torture to you.

Che Young00:25:39

Unfairness.

Timothy R Andrews00:25:40

Me. Che, look at me. Yeah, look at Me. Is there such thing? Objective beauty.

Che Young00:25:45

Objective beauty. Explain the question.

Tracey Rashid00:25:49

What mythical creature would you believe is real?

Che Young00:25:53

Dragons.

Timothy R Andrews00:25:53

Are lifeguards attractive?

Che Young00:25:55

Some lifeguards I'm sure are. Some are not going to be.

Tracey Rashid00:25:58

Yes, that's a definite Shay response there. Say g' day, mate in an Australian accent.

Che Young00:26:05

G' day, mate.

Timothy R Andrews00:26:07

You fill your car up with too much petrol, how would you manage to get in?

Che Young00:26:13

I'd have to ride on the roof.

Timothy R Andrews00:26:18

And you're off the hook. So how easy was that?

Che Young00:26:21

Great. I enjoyed that. I could have talked for another five hours, but yeah, I loved it. That was great.

Tracey Rashid00:26:26

Thank you for being such a great guest. Thank you.

Che Young00:26:29

Ah, thank you for being such a great host. It's been lovely chatting to you, Shay.

Timothy R Andrews00:26:33

Thank you very much. Been really informative and I think I'm gonna have to listen to this podcast podcast more than once.I think it's hugely educational and I think we've barely touched the surface.

Che Young00:26:43

Yeah, really lovely meeting you. Great energy.

Tracey Rashid00:26:45

Thank you.

Timothy R Andrews00:26:46

You too.

Tracey Rashid00:26:47

See you later.

Che Young00:26:48

Bye, guys.

Tracey Rashid00:26:49

Bye. Bye.

Timothy R Andrews00:26:50

Without their help, we would not been able to produce this episode though a big shout out to the Brighton Box Gallery. WW.The BrightonBoxGallery.com sadly, that's all we have.

Tracey Rashid00:27:00

Time for in this episode Talking Hospitality. But tune in next week where we have another fabulous episode guest who will be talking hospitality.

Timothy R Andrews00:27:08

And don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening and stay awesome.

Intro00:27:14

Talking Hospitality

Tracey Rashid00:27:24

Cherry Bakewell or Fondant Fancy?

Che Young00:27:27

Fondant Fancy. I've never liked cherry bakewells, don't know why.

Timothy R Andrews00:27:32

Love them.

Tracey Rashid00:27:32

You haven't had one of mine, that's why.

Timothy R Andrews00:27:36

Available from essenceofcake.co uk.

Tracey Rashid00:27:39

Thanks, team.