Burnout, Belonging & the Real Cost of Toxic Workplaces

Matt Cameron00:00:00

Yeah, I've had a bit of a roller coaster ride in hospitality, you know, starting from washing dishes in a place in Brisbane, being paid illegally and shouted out to quitting hospitality at 15 to vowing to never come back to then, you know, falling in love with hospitality.So I guess for me it took me some time to realize this and think and you know, unpack this place that I found and it led me to look into and better understand the impact that work can have on people.I feel like, you know, when we talk about work life balance and it's a phrase that often gets thrown around, especially in this conversation, you know, a lot of the interventions and the things that businesses do to improve their employees lives.

Timothy R Andrews00:00:55

Today's guest is someone who knows the hospitality industry inside and out. Matthew Cameron is the founder of TMC People Agency and co founder of well Jam.And he spent over 15 years working with everyone from startups to top tier hospitality, with everyone from startups to top tier hospitality brands. Matthew's approach is all about transforming toxic workplaces into thriving environments that keep people engaged and happy to stay.His personal journey is what makes his perspective, perspective so unique. And we're going to go into that right now. So buckle up for some real no nonsense chat with Matt Cameron. Welcome to the show, Matt.

Matt Cameron00:01:36

Hey, thank you for, for having me, Tim. It's been too long.

Timothy R Andrews00:01:39

It has. It's a real pleasure to get you on because I know that you are so passionate about people and the environment that they work in.And let's talk in hospitality.Joe's also very much that way as well inclined And Tracy, Tracy can't be here at the moment due to technical issues it would appear so she's been struggling all week with them. So.And I was just saying Joe talking hospitality is very much about empowering people and Joe and Tracy and myself, that's what kind of our raison d' etre and it's one of the reasons why I do it. So that's why I wanted you on the show because this, your kind of.Every conversation I've ever had with you is about how can we make things better for people within hospitality particularly. And so I just wanted to get you on so you could share your story.

Matt Cameron00:02:29

Yeah, thank you.Yeah, I guess it's really true for me and I think for a lot of people, you know, people are the foundation of hospitality businesses and for me, well being and retention and these sorts of topics, you know, they're not just cost to manage or HR buzzwords or just a way to make people Feel better. Which obviously is a great plus of these things.You know, they're competitive advantages for businesses in hospitality, especially the ones that do it right.But for me, I've had a bit of a roller coaster ride in hospitality, starting from washing dishes in a place in Brisbane, being paid illegally and shouted out to quitting hospitality at 15, to vowing to never come back, to then falling in love with hospitality.But I guess if we keep the story short in terms of my rise from washing dishes to picking up plates and glasses, to running bars and being a manager and moving to the other side of the world to work in London and Edinburgh, I guess the story that leads me to do what I do now to, you know, help businesses improve their, their people and their culture. It begins in, in 2018. You know, I was working in what I thought at the time was my dream job.And it hits a climax towards the end of 2018 and start of 2019, which on the second day of 2019, I had planned to take my life. You know, I was sat on the edge of my bed and tied up one of my shoes and that was my plan for that day.Um, now for some, it sounds a bit strange to hear this, but at the time, you know, there wasn't a huge amount, you know, wrong in my life. You know, the things that people commonly think of when they expect someone to.Well, when they think about someone in, in that space, in that sort of mindset, you know, I hadn't had any big traumatic event or death in the family or relationship breakdown. You know, I was doing okay outside of that.And at that point in time, it was, you know, burnout and the work environment that was, you know, suffocating. You know, this, this place that I was spending 6 to 10 to 12 to 14 hours a day, and it was absolutely, you know, sucking the life outside of, of me.And it was tough. And, you know, it wasn't the instant decision to end up at that place on the edge of my bed on the second.It was a gradual decline over, you know, about six months, which I didn't even notice I was in this space until, you know, I found myself there that morning. So I guess for me, it took me some time to, to realize this and think and, you know, unpack this place that I, I found.And it led me to look into and better understand the impact that work can have on people.I feel like when we talk about work, life balance and the phrase that often gets thrown around, especially in this conversation, a lot of the interventions and the things that Businesses do to improve their employees lives. While they're well intentioned, they primarily look at the life side of that balance. How do we improve people's lives outside of work?The four day work weeks, the gym memberships, these sorts of things, they're amazing. This is not me discounting them, but they don't effectively improve life inside of work. So that's essentially what I do now.We talk about improving the workplace, improving the culture, the leadership and how we can turn that into a competitive advantage for businesses. Because like I said, to start businesses are there primarily to do one thing and that's to make money. And we need to be realistic about that.But the people within those businesses are the way to get to that end goal.And if you don't take care of them, if you don't understand their needs and their wants and their sort of drivers, you're constantly going to be treading water and trying to survive and putting out fires. So I help businesses, you know, use their greatest asset, their people.

Timothy R Andrews00:07:20

Thank you for sharing.So I mean it's incredibly, while it starts off obviously quite a difficult situation, it's actually quite inspiring because it's actually been a catalyst for you, hasn't it, to, for change.Was that catalyst, obviously once you decided against taking your life, how long was it after that that you suddenly realized that was your kind of purpose? What was it that that triggered that or was it that was the moment?

Matt Cameron00:07:50

Neither that there was another moment. I, I guess for a period of time after that I, I was focused on improving, you know, my own life.You know, I, I got heavily into, into fitness, sort of threw myself into just taking care of my physical health.Waking up every morning in the middle of winter, 4am to get in the gym, which sounds crazy now, it's, it's cold and dark at 4am but there was a moment actually where I was at work and my assistant manager came up to me and she asked me for help and she mentioned things that I, you know, was feeling or had been feeling leading up to, you know, the end of 2018. And you know, I realized that other people were going through the same thing I was.And you know, there, there had to be a way to, you know, try and improve that. So my journey then led me to, you know, launch a nutritional supplement in the hospitality industry called Hospital.I think that was the introvert in me trying to help from, you know, the, the background creating this, this one piece of the puzzle that people could use to improve their life. But then, you know, that launched three or four weeks before COVID in, in 2020. So, you know, it launched really well and then, you know, it didn't.But that was an interesting time. But without that, I wouldn't be doing this now. You know, I understood that, you know, this.And it's important to tell my story because while my story led to, you know, quite an extreme, you know, like, moment in my life, you know, there, there are others who are going through very similar things, but perhaps they're not quite, you know, mine's quite an extreme case. Maybe they're, you know, not as far down that journey.Maybe they're just, you know, having, you know, a really terrible time at work and maybe it'll never reach the stage that I did. But, you know, the, the problems that I was facing are not dissimilar then a lot of people do face.

Joe McDonnell00:10:07

No, I mean, it's especially rife in our, in our industry, the mental health issues. Yeah, it's. We're almost primed for it. It's like if you wanted to cause someone who otherwise would.Wasn't suffering from mental health issues, what would you like? Let's make a list of what you do to them from a systematic point of view. You would deprive them of sleep when you put them on oscillating shifts.You put them in high stress environments that need a lot of instant solutions.You've put them with an ever changing roster of people so that those relationships are constantly on the move and those, those points of those foundational relationships that you have for your support are in flux. You know, that's just off top of hell. There's five. And it's like any one of them could do it. And it's like, you know, I think it's. Yeah, it's incred.It's incredibly important, the work that you're doing, mate. Like, it's. Because it is. Unfortunately, it's a big problem with gala.

Matt Cameron00:11:13

Yeah. And I think while it's a tough thing to do, I think being preventative in these things as best we can is the best solution.There's a lot of great charities and groups who are doing great work for people who are already going through it.But I think the best way that we can improve these things is to create environments where people feel comfortable and safe, but ultimately also feeling like they're achieving something because it's so important to feel that purpose in your life and especially with the younger generation, like they, they are looking for, for more than just a paycheck at work.There are various, various different studies that show like what, what make people, you know, happy into a field at work and without it, you know, best case, they, they move on, they, they find somewhere else. They. But they also could face mental health challenges as well through unsupportive and unfulfilling work environments. Because it is tough.Like you say, the people are changing, the benefits could be discounts on drinks and the people you hang out with, they're like, oh, let's get a drink after work. It just compounds that issue. And yeah, it's a beautiful industry, but it's definitely got its, its challenges as well.

Timothy R Andrews00:12:37

So on that note, so Kieran Bailey, in the previous episode, Kieran Bailey said that he overheard a conversation with people he described as Gen Z's who were using language that's very detrimental about themselves in terms of very sort of putting them back in their place, sort of tipping away at any self confidence that they might have. And it sounded like a reoccurring thing.Now, I, I do think that is across generations, but it does seem to be quite prevalent in Gen Z at the moment in terms of some of the people that I've looked at.And I know, particularly from my working with you, but also from my experience of what you've been saying to the world is you talk very much about young people and the troubles that they're having and how employers can address it better. Because let's face it, most in our industry, particularly most employers, are older and so they may not have the same experience.And I've expressed it before, I also think the language has changed quite dramatically between generations, perhaps more than ever before. You know, it's the first time we've got four generations in the workplace.So my question to you is, what advice would you give employers when hiring young people or thinking about working with young people to prevent some of these issues that they might have.

Matt Cameron00:14:01

How much time have we got? We've got. Got a lot to what a lot to cover there. So I want to start off something that's always alarmed me.There was a, there was a study by, indeed a little while back, like looking at young people and you know, I was either 91 or 93% of young people are comfortable ghosting and interview or their first day of work. So for me, you know, I think something that we need to understand is the employee journey starts before day one.You know, it starts as soon as they, they are exposed to your brand.And I think understanding that and what you offer outside of a paycheck, you know, your, your employee value proposition, you know, what what makes you special? You know, what, what can you offer them? What progression can you offer them?You know, environmental policies has become a big talking point for young people as well. You know, they, that they want to work with, with companies that align with their values outside of work.You know, do they, do they sort of monitor their environmental output or what mental health policies have they got in place? So I guess that that employee journey from before day one through to day one through to day 90 is incredibly important.But I think the biggest piece of advice that I could give is everyone's different and trying to treat people like everyone else is going to lead to problems. You know, if you look at like the research backed well being interventions, they ultimately say like everything's effective and nothing's effective.At the same time, you know, some things will work for some people, some people won't, some things will not work for other people.So ultimately it comes down to asking the right questions and finding out what is possible because you may have one employee with that one thing worked absolutely perfect on and you know, they've been in your company for, for five years and they're incredibly happy and they, you know, they've worked their way up from, you know, picking up glasses to being general manager and like they absolutely love working for you. But then if you use that, you copy and paste and use that on someone new could be incredibly ineffective.So I think just understanding people and understanding what, what they're looking for from your job and asking those right questions because you know, this job satisfaction is so important to young people and that sense of purpose is so important to young people and there's just so much data out about it now like you know, work. There was a Deloitte study that showed that work is the second biggest influence on Gen Z and Millennials sense of identity.So while you talk about the language that young people use that could be, you know, putting themselves down, you know, if they're seeing this sense of identity being connected to their work, if their workplace is not a positive place, then they're going to take that almost personally. That's going to be impact every other area of their life because it's part of their identity. That's not me saying that.It's a huge global organization that has looked into this and it is, you know, fundamental to how people feel about themselves and you know, their self worth and how they feel about this. Because for me like, you know, when I hit that day in January, my self worth was zero.You know, I was thinking no one's going to notice if I'm gone, you know, no one's going to wonder where's Matt? Like I had no sense of identity, I had no self purpose and a lot of that was because I threw myself into work so heavily.And I know a lot of people in hospitality do that. Whether that's healthy or not, that's probably a chat for another day.But you know, a lot of us are incredibly passionate about this industry and if that doesn't go well, that can be quite dangerous.

Joe McDonnell00:18:17

What Matt, what would you say to, to someone? Because, because it says there's a fine line there between passion and, let's call it crazy, right?I'm thinking about like, I'm thinking about like a caricature of a, of a, like the, the evil genius. But he's a chef, right? He creates amazing food, but it can be a little abrasive. And that as we know, has a knock on effect.Like you tell, he says, oh, the customer wants this. Tell them to off. Well, I can't do that. But you know, but the food's good so you keep working with them.Like when it's really, really hard to like, I think to know when we're the cause of the problem. Like it's one thing to point and say I know that's wrong, I know that's wrong.But what are some ways that people can, what are some ways that people can also got any methods or any tips or tricks about how people could recognize their own influence. Like you talked about toxic into thriving. Like how, how, how, how do we know if we're the ones contributing to the toxicity?

Matt Cameron00:19:19

It's tough, just not going to sugarcoat it. It's tough to take that introspective look and be like, shit, am I the problem here?But it's important to do and I think, you know, doing almost like an audit of, of not just the skills in your company but you know, the personalities within your company and where they all sort of fit together.Now hospitality does have a tendency to often promote people based on, you know, how long they've been working somewhere or you know, if they were a really good bartender, they become, you know, head bartender and bar manager rather than being the best leader of the organization.So I think understanding how, you know, the jigsaw fits together and you can only do that by stepping back and you know, understanding, you know, what role people play in this and the give you a little bit of a shameless plug here. But maybe, you know, looking for someone within your organization to do this process perhaps isn't the best idea.So hiring somebody like me to come and look at how that jigsaw comes together is crucial because, you know, you may have a manager who, like you say, is, you know, an incredible chef. Let's say you've got a head chef that's just an outstanding chef, but he's kind of the. He or her. Sorry.Could be the reason why people are leaving and why people are unhappy. So perhaps, you know, you need to.You need to look at their role in the company not in a way that, you know, are we going to fire them, but in a way of, do we scale back, you know, their. Their leadership and their mentor role and let them focus more just on the food. Like maybe they.They transition into, you know, an executive chef kind of role, and you get one of the sues that has, you know, an amazing relationship with the team to take on that more people focused role. And, you know, this is probably a little bit easier in larger organizations than what it is in smaller ones.You know, you kind of work with what you have. But I think it almost became like a.Like a bad thing to say when I was growing up and I'm not sure about now, like, playing to your strengths was like a sign of weakness.Like, you should always learn, you know, things that you're not good at, but, like, you know, play to your team's strengths, understand their strengths, and then put that jigsaw together. And if you're having trouble, call me.

Joe McDonnell00:21:53

Yeah, I think it's so powerful having that impartial view because, you know, you can come in and say, I haven't got a dog in this fight. My job is to get, you know, we're not precious about being right. We're precious about getting it right. I think that's really cool.

Matt Cameron00:22:04

Yeah. Yeah.

Timothy R Andrews00:22:06

So I got a good question for you, because how do you. In theory, everybody says, oh, yeah, I want to empower my team, I want to develop them, I want to look after them, and da, da, da, da, da.And in reality, I find that when people are sorry to. When they start looking, the expectation of what they might need to do, and there's this huge resistance.What kind of the regular resistance do you get from people? What are kind of the. I'm going to call it excuses, because that's why I'm here. It's excuses that aren't necessarily real reasons, but.And they don't ring true. You know what's true when you hear it? What are the excuses you're hearing and how do you respond to those? Maybe Give us two or three examples.

Matt Cameron00:22:47

First, one could be ego. You know, they feel like they're, they're giving, you know, autonomy and empowering their people.But, you know, how, how far are they going, how much control are they really giving up? You know, how, how loose are they letting the reins, how much freedom and creativity are they giving their people? That's another stat.And I don't know the exact numbers, but the figure of managers who feel like they're doing a great job is really quite high.And then their actual score as a manager is a lot lower than what they expected, which is probably always going to be the case, but the gap is larger than what you would think. Second thing that I would recommend would be. Can you ask the question again?

Timothy R Andrews00:23:39

Yeah. So what are the kind of, what excuses do people use? And then what's your response to that?

Matt Cameron00:23:45

I was running a workshop once and I feel like this is a, a really good example. I won't mention the name of the company. I like to keep, you know, the, the work I do behind closed doors because that's how you can develop trust.And, but it's a really good example.He, he was a little bit older and he basically had this attitude that, you know, when he was coming up through the industry, he had to work these, these long shifts, these long days, and he kind of expected it of the people he was bringing up. And he just had this attitude, this, you know, blanket attitude of young people just have no work ethic these days. And I feel like that's an excuse.It's a big excuse in my head because I believe they're just driven by different things and it's not a matter of them not wanting to work, it's about.And I, I, sadly, looking back on it, maybe, maybe I shouldn't have been this blunt to him in the, in the workshop, but I essentially proposed to him that maybe it wasn't their problem for having no work ethic. Maybe it was his problem as a manager, that he didn't know how to motivate them.You know, if, if someone's not willing to work another, you know, half an hour or an hour, as long as, you know, they can get home and, you know, the, you know, the transport services are still working.And as long as those variables are not a problem, then if someone's not willing to work that extra half an hour, that extra hour, then that's a sign that they're not engaged with you or your business. Because if they are, while I don't recommend people should work too Long hours.I think if you really love what you do, another half an hour of your life isn't a big deal. Like, when I'm running my businesses, you know, I will throw myself into them and I know they're mine and it's not the.The best comparison, but, like, if you really love what you do, you don't have any problem doing it.And, you know, as long as you paid for those hours and all these things are taken care of, then if you're not willing to work another half an hour, then that's a management issue, that's a leadership issue, that's not a generational issue.

Joe McDonnell00:26:08

I think there's also something to be said for the connection level. It's like, who are you? If you don't do this, you're not. You're not sticking around to help the boss, let's say the owner, earn an extra 30 quid.You're sticking around and you're not sticking around to earn yourself an extra 30 quid.You're sticking around because either a, the guests who are going to come in or the guests you've already got are going to suffer because the team shorthanded or battle. Far more likely or far more motivating for me personally at least, is you're going to let you leave your team.You know, you're going to leave them in the lurch and you know that they need that support.So if, yeah, it's, again, it shows that, like, that they're not part of the team in that sense and they don't see themselves as part of that team, which is. It's such a strong motivator for people, isn't it, if they really feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves. When you.As you say, it's a really strong indicator, isn't it? And it's not actually a reflection necessarily on the person.All right, if there's someone who blanket refuses to go the extra mile, then maybe it's an attitude issue, but also you could argue, yeah, it's a motivation issue, but for sure, it's. It shows that they're not invested in the future of what's happening. They're not invested in the people around them. I've not heard that before.That's really cool, mate.

Matt Cameron00:27:24

Yeah, that was a. That was a really interesting study. I think early 2010s a. I don't know how to say that. That decade, I'm getting a bit old. I think it was about 20.Yeah, 20. 2010, 2011. Somewhere around there. Probably the Tensies in the, in the 2000s.That was, that was a, was a really interesting study, like looking at, you know, what, what motivates and gets people happy at work. And, you know, went through just over 200 people and 12,000 diary entries over a period of time, whether it was six months or 12 months.And I can't quite remember, but it basically looked at what makes, you know, a great day at work. And the thing they came back with was progress. You know, every day you're constantly moving forward.So whether that is, you know, moving forward with your team, like you mentioned, you know, you're part of a team, you're all working towards, you know, one goal or if they're personal goals, you know, you want to, you want to own your own bar one day. So you're there, you're learning the skills, you're, you're progressing up the ranks and, you know, you've got that end goal in mind.Or even if you're, you're just trying to save up for, say a car or something, you know, making progress towards something is the best way to keep someone engaged and to keep someone happy at work. And you need to understand what that thing is.You know, if, if you're just saying, hey, work another hour, you'll get another 15 quid, which will then be taxed and you won't actually get 15 quid. And then you miss your train home and then you've got to get a taxi and actually your, your 20 quid down. You know, how is that motivating someone?If you're focusing purely on money, then you are missing so much, so, so much.

Timothy R Andrews00:29:11

Thank you very much. That's really good advice there, Matt. Unfortunately, it is time to wrap up.There's lots of gems and if somebody's interested in speaking to you to find out more, where can they come and find you?

Matt Cameron00:29:23

So I'm pretty active on LinkedIn.Matthew Cameron, or I believe it's that Matt Cameron or my website is that mattcameron.com and on there I've got a really cool calculator that could show how much money you potentially could be losing through ineffective people strategies.It's not a perfect science, but it could give you a good sort of indication of what you, you could gain by, you know, looking more deeply into these things, but that's that.

Timothy R Andrews00:29:56

Mattcameron.com thank you very much and please do check it out. There's great resources on there. And Matthew, thank you very much for coming on today.

Matt Cameron00:30:06

Thank you for having me.