Is Hospitality Racist?
Is Hospitality Racist?
In our season 3 finale, hosts Timothy R. Andrews and Sarah Kettel partner up with our third, special guest host Tracey Rashid.
Together they take a deep dive into the 2023 Be Inclusive Hospitality report about equality, diversity and inclusion within the Hospitality industry.
They are joined by CEO and Founder of Be Inclusive Hospitality, Lorraine Copes.
In this powerful season finale, we’re joined by Lorraine Copes, Founder and CEO of Be Inclusive Hospitality, for a conversation that every hospitality professional needs to hear.
“This is not the place for performance. This is people’s lives.” – Lorraine Copes
We explore the hard-hitting findings of the 2023 Inside Hospitality report — the only one of its kind focused specifically on race equity in the UK hospitality sector. Lorraine shares the lived experience behind the data, her motivation for launching Be Inclusive Hospitality, and what it’s really going to take to make lasting change.
From underrepresentation in senior roles to lack of accountability for discriminatory behaviour, Lorraine lays out the barriers — and more importantly, what can be done to break them down. We also discuss the limits of “performative inclusion”, the companies doing the real work, and why employers must stop waiting for permission to act.
Lorraine’s story isn’t just about pointing out problems — it’s about building something better, creating safe spaces, and showing what’s possible when purpose and action align.
If you’ve ever asked yourself how you can be part of the solution, this episode is your starting point.
Takeaways:
- The podcast dives deep into the question of whether hospitality is inherently racist, sparking critical conversations about discrimination in the industry.
- Lorraine Copes, the founder and CEO of Be Inclusive Hospitality, shares her inspiring journey and the motivations behind creating her organization.
- The Inside Hospitality report reveals shocking statistics, indicating that 62% of black and Asian participants experience racial bias in the workplace.
- Only half of those who witnessed discrimination felt they could report it, highlighting a systemic issue within reporting mechanisms in hospitality.
- The podcast emphasizes the importance of taking actionable steps to create inclusive work environments, focusing on education and awareness as vital tools for change.
- Listeners are encouraged to visit Be Inclusive Hospitality's website to access their latest report, which provides valuable insights into diversity and inclusion in hospitality.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Be Inclusive Hospitality
- Gordon Ramsay Group
- Corbyn and King
- Shake Shack
More information on Lorraine Copes & Be Inclusive Hospitality can be found at:
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Timothy put the Kettel on is Co-hosted by:
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Editing & Visuals by: Timothy R Andrews
Theme Tune: "Mandarin & Chocolate" by Doriane Woo
Feat voiceover artist, Lara Rathod
Sound Effects by: Epidemic Sound
00:00 - Untitled
00:18 - Exploring Inclusive Hospitality
04:22 - The Impact of the Pandemic on Hospitality Initiatives
04:49 - Reflections on Relationships and Industry Challenges
11:49 - The Future of Social Impact in the Industry
14:55 - Transition to the Quick Fire Round
17:51 - End of Season Three Summary
Timothy R Andrews
Is hospitality racist?
Tracey Rashid
We are delighted today to be speaking with founder and CEO of Be Inclusive Hospitality, Lorraine Copes, to find out about her story.How did the inclusive hospitality come about and what it is? Some surprising results from the report and what could be done to make the findings in the report become a catalyst for change.
Sarah Kettel
Welcome to another episode of Talking Hospitality. It's season three with me, Tracey Rashid and Timothy R. Andrews. Welcome back everybody and thanks for joining us again.In June 2023, Be Inclusive Hospitality released their third Inside Hospitality report.
Tracey Rashid
The report provides insights into the views and experience of all hospitality workers, specifically focusing on black, Asian and ethnic minorities.
Timothy R Andrews
The report is the only one of its kind focusing on equality, diversity and inclusion in the hospitality industry.
Lorraine Copes
To this depth in the report.
Sarah Kettel
One in three have experienced discriminatory behaviour in the workplace. 62% of black and Asian respondents stated that the racial bias was the most prevalent.
Timothy R Andrews
Of all those who witnessed discrimination, only 52% said they had an opportunity to report it and only a third of those who reported it were satisfied that their complaint was dealt with adequately.
Tracey Rashid
We are delighted today to be speaking with Lorraine Copes, Founder and CEO of Be Inclusive Hospitality. Hi everyone. Welcome to the show.
Lorraine Copes
Lorraine, thank you for having me.
Timothy R Andrews
Thanks for joining us. So, hopefully hot news at the moment, big report caused some ripples.
Lorraine Copes
Yep.
Timothy R Andrews
For the people who are listening but don't know who Be Inclusive Hospitality are, could you please tell us a little about them?
Lorraine Copes
Yeah, sure. So Be Inclusive Hospitality is a social enterprise.It's a not for profit organization with a mission to accelerate race equity within the hospitality industry.What that means is we take a data led approach to support people of colour to move forwards and upwards with the initiatives and programs that we devise.And we also work with hospitality businesses and food and drink brands to help them build either more inclusive teams or deliver initiatives that centre diversity and inclusion.
Tracey Rashid
Amazing. I like it.
Timothy R Andrews
Didn't even say that better myself.
Tracey Rashid
I hope not. Facts don't lie, do they?
Lorraine Copes
For sure.
Tracey Rashid
Could you tell us about your story and how you came to start Be Inclusive Hospitality?
Lorraine Copes
Yeah, sure. So I've personally worked within the hospitality industry for the past two decades.I have been a procurement director on leadership boards for brands like the Gordon Ramsay Group, Corbin &* King Shake Shack.And having spent two decades in the industry, an industry that I really enjoy and love, I felt really compelled to start this business a because I often was sat in boardrooms or at events across the industry, award ceremonies and the only person that looked like me in any of those rooms. And secondly, the wrong people within the industry were having conversations about race who were ill informed.And actually I felt that or knew that it's an industry.I know really well, I know loads of people of colour in the industry and I understand their experiences and I just felt like there was a real gap to be filled on having this conversation, especially because equity, diversity, inclusion isn't an alien concept, but it often doesn't include race, it often centers gender and there's still a lot of work to be done on gender, on sexuality, but actually race was completely missing from the conversations within this industry. So in 2020 pandemic, we had a lot of time on our hands. I'm a bit of a busy body, so I had nothing to do but drink wine.And I had the idea in 2019, actually, but the time allowed me to revise and refine my business plan, build a website and launch the business in June 2020. And it was Pandemic, actually, that gave me the space to do.
Tracey Rashid
I think we've mentioned in previous podcasts as well. It's amazing what's come out of the Pandemic.
Lorraine Copes
Definitely.
Tracey Rashid
It's been really inspiring to see what people have done with their time.
Lorraine Copes
Sure.
Timothy R Andrews
And also we had a great podcast Born during.
Tracey Rashid
Time for us as well.
Sarah Kettel
Picking up on what Tracey said about the things that came out the Pandemic.I think the one thing that I see as a gift from such a terrible situation is that it gave us the space and the time to be thinking properly and acting properly. And is that what it did for you?
Lorraine Copes
It really did. It really did.And yeah, it created space not only for me to get clarity about what I wanted my life to look like outside of the pandemic, but also for me to also reflect on the relationships I wanted to have and rebuild and reconnect. And so I've really, since that time, I've really viewed my family and friend relationships very differently and I value them more than ever.
Timothy R Andrews
Obviously, this report in 2023, we actually were discussing this, the three hosts, just prior to you coming on, and we were saying it's not surprising, but some of the results were quite disappointing. But were there any results that you saw that were surprising that you want to talk about?
Lorraine Copes
Yeah, no, there weren't actually.I've been in the industry for a very long time and I think the report always paints a picture every year of the idea that two things can be true at the same time, that there's huge amounts of optimism, people do enjoy the industry and people are joining the industry at fast rate that we know.And it highlights that there are issues that need to be addressed and that there's a lack of awareness in some instances, lack of action, I would say lack of education.And the education piece, I'm talking about training and I always bolt education onto it because I don't think you can train someone to be inclusive, but you can educate for sure. So there were no surprises for me, to be honest.
Tracey Rashid
There's a lot of data. There's a lot of data in the report, but there are also several kind of key conclusions that can be drawn from the report.So, for example, disparities in pay, representation and roles for ethnic minority groups continue to be an issue. So why do you think this is and what can employers do about it? What can they do to make a change?
Lorraine Copes
One thing I am obviously very data led. You look at the UK wide, the same replies. And so me answering the question about inequality that exists UK wide, I think we all know why it exists.And I think our focus really is around how we remove barriers and how we increase access in many ways, even though this business was born off the back of a problem, it has revealed for me the best of the industry. And what I mean by that is we work with some really phenomenal business leaders.We work with individuals that don't have all the answers, are willing to be uncomfortable and willing to learn, develop and grow. Every single week, not a week passes where there's businesses that gets in touch with us, saying, how can we work with you?What can we do differently? What should we be doing?I think we've explored to death within the country, especially in 2020, inequities or inequalities in the UK, we know they exist. There's across education, across the healthcare system, across the system, there's evidence that supports the idea. It's actually about what now?And the reason why I produce this research is not to prove or disprove anything.It's actually because there are nuances within our industry that people need to understand that a report about education probably doesn't speak to a managing director of a hospitality mortality business. So that's why we produce the data. So it's specific to this industry, because there are nuances across industries. Right.And with this, what we know, probably similar to the NHS, is that there's technical overrepresentation. There was in 2020, and I say that because I'm pretty sure the latest census Data said that 18% of the UK identify as black Asian or ethnic minority.It was around 13 to 14% back in 2020.And at that time, when we produced our first report with the Resolution foundation, there was 17.83% of the industry identifies black, Asian, ethnic minority. So we know diverse.
Tracey Rashid
It's encouraging, though, to hear that you're not just pushing your support, but you're actually pulling people in as well and they're actually contacting you.
Lorraine Copes
Oh, definitely. You know what? Since incorporation, so we obviously are consistent with our message on what we're here to do.We run initiatives like our award ceremony and like launching the report, which are two biggest projects each year, and they are probably the two biggest projects that make us really visible. We don't knock on doors at all. That's not what we do. I'm present at events, I do some thought pieces, I'm on panels.We do the work and as a result of that, we attract a community. They talk about the work we do, they spread the word, they come to us.
Sarah Kettel
I think we're a pretty special industry in hospitality, in that a lot of other industries talk about networking, but it feels like it's an effort to do it, whereas I feel that we do it quite naturally.
Lorraine Copes
Yeah, for sure.
Sarah Kettel
So I think we're quite lucky in that respect.
Lorraine Copes
I totally agree.
Tracey Rashid
And this hand in hand, isn't it?
Lorraine Copes
It really is, yeah. And there's so many. There's so many forums and opportunities for people to get together. Like they're endless.
Timothy R Andrews
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Kettel
If someone at work is experiencing discriminatory behaviour, are there any words of advice that you can give them? What should they do?
Lorraine Copes
My approach is not really onus on individuals, so I'd like to hope that they have in their organisation a method to report it where they can feel safe and they can feel confident that actions will be taken.The reality of the fact is that there's not like a consistent behaviour, consistent process across the industry, so it's on a case by case basis as to whether they have that. So the first is to understand if that is in place and if it is in place to use it.But actually, the work that we do really speaks to the employers about actually, is there something in place so people can report incidents of racism or discrimination in the workplace and what action are you going to take when that occurs? Because the action that you're going to take will determine whether you build trust with employees of colour or not.If, as an employee, you report something and no action's taken, I would say find somewhere else to work. We're here to Earn a living navigating this thing called life is difficult for us all.And if you have to add the layer of experiencing discrimination at work and knowing that no actions are going to be taken, then you need to find somewhere else to be. Totally agree.
Timothy R Andrews
We've actually talked about it on this podcast where because it's so competitive now, people are looking for good stuff. You could walk out tomorrow. I'm not saying that you do that unprofessionally, but you could walk out tomorrow and go to an employer that values you.There is no point sticking around in somewhere that you're going to be treated terribly or like less than human or causes you fear, anxiety, when you could just go somewhere else to be grateful to have you.
Tracey Rashid
And we spend so much time at work. I mean, the thought of feeling that level, like I say, anxiety and stress and fear even would just be damaging to your. Your being your person.
Lorraine Copes
Exactly.
Sarah Kettel
And as an employer as well, if you're prepared to not put this in place and lose possibly the best people in the industry, don't move.
Lorraine Copes
Yes, yes.
Tracey Rashid
Sort it out, people. Make a change. Make it happen. I'm gonna hashtag that. So, Lorraine, big question. What are your aims for the future?
Lorraine Copes
My aims for the future is to obviously grow the business and for us, growth means more social impact and supporting people to move forwards and upwards.To date we've been able to support over 2,000 people in the industry to access mentorship, access scholarships, to be recognised for awards, to access grant funding, like in partnership with a brand. We want to quadruple this, but we want to quadruple this up and down the country and then into Europe, globally.We want to have a be inclusive hospitality hub, so we want to be gifted, like a huge office space where we can have meeting rooms, co working so that our partners and our community can come and be within the space for workshops, for working, for content creation. And we just want to continue to create change within the industry. We want to do more events. We love events.Events is a really great vehicle for people to learn without it being in like classroom setting. The formal. We're on a training course, actually. Four people speak from backgrounds with perspectives that you might not have heard before.That is such great learning. And it's in a space that everyone that was in the environment felt really comfortable to ask questions. Everyone's really friendly.Always at our events, there's just a common feel of we want to see a better industry. But it starts with we all love the industry, we just want to see a better industry. It's just missing the bs.And so what I mean by that is there's so many businesses that will post on social media, will get a PR army behind them to make it appear as though they're doing amazing things, that will sign pledges and really shout about them on socials. And there's formatism in this space, which annoys the hell out of me. And it annoys the hell out of me because this is not the place for performance.This is people's lives. This affects people.And I really believe that all of the businesses that we attract and we work with, some of them will share the work they're doing because they want to make sure that all people from all backgrounds feel comfortable to apply and work for them. But most of their focus is on doing the work internally and not talking about it. And I think balance to be had.But the companies that we work with and the businesses that we attract definitely are on the side of let's do the real work. We can talk about it because it values and benefits everyone.But then over here on the left, shouting from the rooftops about signing a pledge without doing any work. I guess it just speaks to the idea that what I know for sure is that not everyone will get on board this train. Not everyone cares.Some people have to do it because of their investors and pressure externally. Not everyone is doing it from an authentic place.What I'm really clear on is the types of businesses that we want to work with are those that care and genuinely want to make a change.
Tracey Rashid
Put the cuppa down.
Lorraine Copes
Question time.
Tracey Rashid
It's the quick fire round. The rules of the game are as follows. You will be asked a series of questions and you must answer the first word that pops into your head.
Timothy R Andrews
Are you ready, Lorraine?
Lorraine Copes
Yep.
Tracey Rashid
Let's do this.
Timothy R Andrews
How often do you go to the cinema?
Lorraine Copes
Not often enough, actually.
Tracey Rashid
Do you ever go to watch live sporting events?
Lorraine Copes
Yes.
Timothy R Andrews
What's your favorite restaurant?
Lorraine Copes
Chissuru. West African restaurant in London.
Tracey Rashid
Have you ever lied about your age?
Lorraine Copes
Never.
Timothy R Andrews
Do you think there will still be newspapers in five years time?
Lorraine Copes
Yes.
Tracey Rashid
What is your favorite type of art?
Lorraine Copes
African art.
Timothy R Andrews
Have you ever cried watching a movie?
Lorraine Copes
Yes, many of times.
Tracey Rashid
Do you believe in ghosts?
Lorraine Copes
No.
Timothy R Andrews
When you eat in a restaurant, do you order something new? You know you like a combo.
Tracey Rashid
Were you a good school pupil or a little bit naughty?
Lorraine Copes
I talked a lot.
Timothy R Andrews
Where will you be this time tomorrow?
Lorraine Copes
In the gym.
Tracey Rashid
What's something that you learned in the last week?
Lorraine Copes
How tiring talking can be.
Timothy R Andrews
Who invented the telephone?
Lorraine Copes
I have no idea.
Tracey Rashid
Sing or dance?
Lorraine Copes
Oh, both.
Tracey Rashid
Would you rather wear the same underwear for one month or. Or not bathe for one month?
Lorraine Copes
Same underwear.
Timothy R Andrews
How do you catch a haggis?
Lorraine Copes
No idea.
Tracey Rashid
Is it hot in here or are all firemen well, fit?
Lorraine Copes
I don't understand. I don't understand.
Timothy R Andrews
Was Shakespeare a fraud?
Lorraine Copes
I don't know. I've never really thought about that. That's something I'd need to mull over.
Tracey Rashid
How many elephants can you get in a fridge?
Lorraine Copes
None.
Timothy R Andrews
Consider this. Captain America has a shield. The Wicked Witch of the west had a hat. But if a dustbin collector has no nose, how does he smell?
Lorraine Copes
Why does he need to smell?
Timothy R Andrews
The answer is awful. Anyway, moving on. Thank you very much. That's the end of the questions. You are off the hook.
Tracey Rashid
Oh, well, Lorraine, we've spent the last 20 minutes or so talking about your report for 2023. How can our listeners access it?
Lorraine Copes
Yeah, sure, if they head over to our website, which is www.bihospitality.co.uk. it's in the reports section of the website and you'll be able to download it from there.
Tracey Rashid
Brilliant. And we'll have the links below as well. Thank you for being such a great guest, Lorraine. We've really enjoyed having you on the show today.
Lorraine Copes
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Timothy R Andrews
Sadly, we have reached the end of season three already. Can you believe it? I'd like to thank my co host, Sarah and Tracey for being such great superstars throughout the season.I'd like to thank all our guests who've come onto the show, shared their stories, some valuable tips and advice for some of the issues that we're facing in hospitality today. I'd also like to thank my crew, Paul and Carlina.And most importantly, above all, I would like to thank you, the listener, for tuning in and listening to all our episodes.If you'd like to keep up to date and find out when the next podcast is happening, Please go to www.timothyrandrews.com where you can subscribe and hear the latest news. Please do look out for our special summer announcement and I look forward to seeing you all in our next season.You have been listening to Timothy Put the Cartel on season three.
Sarah Kettel
Don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Stay awesome.
Tracey Rashid
Timothy Put the Katawa on.
